ELBOW

[lagster]

Do you see more SWINGERS employing the 10-3-B (Pitch or Slap) right elbow position at IMPACT or 10-3-A (Punch)? I see a fair number of Swingers that use 10-3-A(Punch) or something very close to that, for Swinging. (Punch= an elbow position that is more at the Side of the right hip)
Nearly all Hitters use "A", but I don't believe that the use of "A" automatically makes them Hitters.

Jim Furyk, a Swinger, APPEARS to nearly get into a 10-3-C(Push) position at IMPACT.

Now... I'm not sure it is of much value to use "B" for Hitting, but it may be.
What do you think about this?

[Matt]

A lot of it has to do with wrist action and startdown. If you use Standard wrist action and have the left wrist Turned on-plane at startup, then the right elbow will gravitate towards being more down and "in front" throughout the stroke. On the other hand, if you employ Single wrist action and do not Turn to the plane at startup, then the right elbow will move more "behind" you.

If you get out of your chair and practice this you can see it very clearly. Take an address position, and use a right forearm pickup to transport each wrist condition to the top. First, just keep the left wrist vertical and use the right forearm to take it to the top. Then go back to address position, Turn the left wrist on-plane, and pickup to the top. Notice how the right elbow wants to move differently in each case.

Second point is how you're moving the club coming down. If you're using right arm thrust, the elbow will want to stay back and PUNCH. If you're karate chopping downplane and delaying it for a while, the right elbow will want to move down and in front into the PITCH position.

In the case of Furyk as you mentioned, he seems to be using more of a Single wrist action as he takes it back, no? Shaft arrives at the top a bit steeper than with most Tour players. No roll of Angled Hinge action in the backstroke. Punch elbow position. Then he just drops and rotates and pulls the club down.

[tincup2004]

Jim Furyk, a Swinger, APPEARS to nearly get into a 10-3-C(Push) position at IMPACT.

I believe Furyk has been identified as a Hitter previously on one of the tgm boards. Someone mentioned his driver clubface being being set up a few degrees closed.

[12 piece bucket]

A lot of it has to do with wrist action and startdown. If you use Standard wrist action and have the left wrist Turned on-plane at startup, then the right elbow will gravitate towards being more down and "in front" throughout the stroke. On the other hand, if you employ Single wrist action and do not Turn to the plane at startup, then the right elbow will move more "behind" you.

If you get out of your chair and practice this you can see it very clearly. Take an address position, and use a right forearm pickup to transport each wrist condition to the top. First, just keep the left wrist vertical and use the right forearm to take it to the top. Then go back to address position, Turn the left wrist on-plane, and pickup to the top. Notice how the right elbow wants to move differently in each case.

Second point is how you're moving the club coming down. If you're using right arm thrust, the elbow will want to stay back and PUNCH. If you're karate chopping downplane and delaying it for a while, the right elbow will want to move down and in front into the PITCH position.

In the case of Furyk as you mentioned, he seems to be using more of a Single wrist action as he takes it back, no? Shaft arrives at the top a bit steeper than with most Tour players. No roll of Angled Hinge action in the backstroke. Punch elbow position. Then he just drops and rotates and pulls the club down.

This is a post full of good info! Nice one.

[lagster]

A lot of it has to do with wrist action and startdown. If you use Standard wrist action and have the left wrist Turned on-plane at startup, then the right elbow will gravitate towards being more down and "in front" throughout the stroke. On the other hand, if you employ Single wrist action and do not Turn to the plane at startup, then the right elbow will move more "behind" you.

If you get out of your chair and practice this you can see it very clearly. Take an address position, and use a right forearm pickup to transport each wrist condition to the top. First, just keep the left wrist vertical and use the right forearm to take it to the top. Then go back to address position, Turn the left wrist on-plane, and pickup to the top. Notice how the right elbow wants to move differently in each case.

Second point is how you're moving the club coming down. If you're using right arm thrust, the elbow will want to stay back and PUNCH. If you're karate chopping downplane and delaying it for a while, the right elbow will want to move down and in front into the PITCH position.

In the case of Furyk as you mentioned, he seems to be using more of a Single wrist action as he takes it back, no? Shaft arrives at the top a bit steeper than with most Tour players. No roll of Angled Hinge action in the backstroke. Punch elbow position. Then he just drops and rotates and pulls the club down.

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Very good post Matt!!! The WRIST ACTION and/or TRIGGER TYPE correlation to ELBOW position at IMPACT is interesting.

[6bmike]

Nice work Matt. I have been toiling over single and standard wrist action all summer.

Say Annikan, what is your pitch elbow position, position?????

[EdZ]

The right elbow certainly is a key area of the swing to focus on, no doubt. I'd suggest we move all or part of this thread to the basics section so those new to TGM can understand this important difference of elbow position, loading and unloading.

[Mike O]

Remember, whether hitting or swinging, the elbow / right forearm location at impact are identical. Per 6-B-3-0-1 and 7-2-3. Since 6-B-3-0-1 requires a Strong Single Action grip- the right forearm from the above view, points in the same direction as the back of the left wrist- that's really part of the flying wedges. During the downstroke- the right elbow may be to the side (Punch) or in front of the hip (Pitch), as Matt pointed out based on the nature of the acceleration method used, the inherent lag loading requirements, which in turn create the different wrist actions, which in turn based on the flying wedge alignments produce different elbow locations, which in turn automatically produce different hinge actions inherent in each of the respective procedures- Hitting or Swinging. But in both cases the elbow/right forearm arrive at the same point at impact- that location you have established at impact fix- with the right forearm precisely positioned not only on-plane but precisely positioned in its same cross line direction as the back of the left wrist and lag pressure point (7-2-3)- fully supporting impact- with a level right wrist since that is the strongest anatomical position of the wrist/forearm alignment.

[jim_0068]

Originally Posted by lagster

Jim Furyk, a Swinger, APPEARS to nearly get into a 10-3-C(Push) position at IMPACT.

I believe Furyk has been identified as a Hitter previously on one of the tgm boards. Someone mentioned his driver clubface being being set up a few degrees closed.

That'd be me!

Someone on bombsquad worked in a tour van for the weekend and helped with his clubs. All of the driver's were closed and make sense due to his angled hinge action

[tongzilla]

Remember, whether hitting or swinging, the elbow / right forearm location at impact are identical. Per 6-B-3-0-1 and 7-2-3. Since 6-B-3-0-1 requires a Strong Single Action grip- the right forearm from the above view, points in the same direction as the back of the left wrist- that's really part of the flying wedges. During the downstroke- the right elbow may be to the side (Punch) or in front of the hip (Pitch), as Matt pointed out based on the nature of the acceleration method used, the inherent lag loading requirements, which in turn create the different wrist actions, which in turn based on the flying wedge alignments produce different elbow locations, which in turn automatically produce different hinge actions inherent in each of the respective procedures- Hitting or Swinging. But in both cases the elbow/right forearm arrive at the same point at impact- that location you have established at impact fix- with the right forearm precisely positioned not only on-plane but precisely positioned in its same cross line direction as the back of the left wrist and lag pressure point (7-2-3)- fully supporting impact- with a level right wrist since that is the strongest anatomical position of the wrist/forearm alignment.

Superb post to illustrate the chain of events taking place! Let me reiterate:


Hitters:
Drive Loading (10-19-A) >>> Single Wrist Action (10-18-C) >>> Punch Basic Stroke (10-3-A)

In English:
Push >>> Left Wrist Cock only >>> Elbow at the side


Swingers:
Drag Loading (19-19-C) >>> Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A) >>> Pitch Basic Stroke (10-3-B)

In English:
Pull >>> Left Wrist is Cocked and Turned on Plane >>> Elbow at the front