Why must a hitter angle hinge and others?

[davel]

There a basic set of criteria which generally are defined by homer to be characteristics of hitters yet there have been cases where somebody does not fit this criteria. For example kenny perry is considered to be a hitter yet he bends his left arm and goes to parallel with the club. Also I have no doubts he can horizontal hinge and draw the ball if he wants.

Thus what physical limitations geometric or otherwise make angled hinging a requirement for hitting versus horizontal. Why can't you take the club all the way back if you need the time for change of direction etc.

Are we just getting a defintion that arbitrally homer defined for hitting or like anything else there are the desirables patterns and the anomolies which work better to certain indivuals.

Dave

[Mathew]

There a basic set of criteria which generally are defined by homer to be characteristics of hitters yet there have been cases where somebody does not fit this criteria. For example kenny perry is considered to be a hitter yet he bends his left arm and goes to parallel with the club. Also I have no doubts he can horizontal hinge and draw the ball if he wants.

Thus what physical limitations geometric or otherwise make angled hinging a requirement for hitting versus horizontal. Why can't you take the club all the way back if you need the time for change of direction etc.

Are we just getting a defintion that arbitrally homer defined for hitting or like anything else there are the desirables patterns and the anomolies which work better to certain indivuals.

Dave

Basically the reason for angled hinging is very much in the participation of the right arm - no.1 accumulator. If your doing it right, the driving right arm automatically tends the hitting procedure towards angled hinging.

Whilst hinge action and how you create angular motion (hitting and swinging) are infact seperate entities. The paddlewheel motion of the right arm tends the hitting procedure towards angled hinging yet the reliance on centrifugal force tends the swinging procedure towards horizontal hinging. Its all to do with the participation of the right arm during the stroke - active or passive. If it is active you are hitting, passive swinging.

[davel]

Basically the reason for angled hinging is very much in the participation of the right arm - no.1 accumulator. If your doing it right, the driving right arm automatically tends the hitting procedure towards angled hinging.

Whilst hinge action and how you create angular motion (hitting and swinging) are infact seperate entities. The paddlewheel motion of the right arm tends the hitting procedure towards angled hinging yet the reliance on centrifugal force tends the swinging procedure towards horizontal hinging. Its all to do with the participation of the right arm during the stroke - active or passive. If it is active you are hitting, passive swinging.

I understand what you are saying. But the point I am making if the hingeing action is truly independent of the angular motion I physically should be able to have a horizontal hinge and since it is not a desirable pattern what potential error does it cost?

I guess I am trying to figure out a mixed hitting swinging procedure which conforms to my physical capabilites(have a handicap) and is closer to my previous swinging procedure.

Dave

[Delaware Golf]

A true hitter can use horizontal hinging....in fact, in the third edition of TGM, Homer had a 3 barrel hitting stroke that used horizontal hinging (10-10-D)....standard wrist action (10-18-A), punch basic right arm motion (10-3-A), top assembly (10-21-A) point, right arm trigger (10-20-B).

Remember, to achieve angled hinging it's a manipulated move per 7-19-1. For horizontal hinging...let the left wrist turn naturally.....for both procedures one must use a right arm punching motion...you must become an expert at executing 10-3-A.

If I was a true hitter, I would use horizontal hinging for getting out of trouble... for instance, getting around a tree when a major draw or hook is required.

DG

[EdZ]

I understand what you are saying. But the point I am making if the hingeing action is truly independent of the angular motion I physically should be able to have a horizontal hinge and since it is not a desirable pattern what potential error does it cost?

I guess I am trying to figure out a mixed hitting swinging procedure which conforms to my physical capabilites(have a handicap) and is closer to my previous swinging procedure.

Dave

A key difference is rotation, and the orientation of the shaft to the loading.

When you swing, you are loading the left wrist due to two primary factors, a startup swivel (rotation onto the plane) and going to 'end' (loading in the plane of the left wrist cock and getting 'under' the shaft)

When you hit, you are loading the right elbow with effectively no real rotation so rather than load against the 'top' of the shaft as in swinging, you are loading more on the 'side' of the shaft. A 90 degree difference - always loading the shaft at 90 degrees to the direction of the loading force in either case.

When you use a horizontal hinge 'hit' you aren't using the full benefits of CF and you are 'forced' to time the squaring of the clubface manually. In other words, since you didn't allow the rotation back, you must 'make' it happen coming through, which is an inconsistent way to play.

As combinations go, loading for hitting and then horizontal hinging isn't the worst, because it does make it easier to hit a draw. The question is the ability to control just how much draw.

The opposite case, loading for swinging and then angled hinging, is an easy way to hit a fade, and again, the question is the ability to control just how much fade.

The force vectors just are less compatible than for a 'straight' ball. As long as you understand the shot shapes that naturally result from each, you can play effectively with any combination. I suspect this is why Homer stated that hinge action does not differentiate hitting and swinging.

[YodasLuke]

A key difference is rotation, and the orientation of the shaft to the loading.

When you swing, you are loading the left wrist due to two primary factors, a startup swivel (rotation onto the plane) and going to 'end' (loading in the plane of the left wrist cock and getting 'under' the shaft)

When you hit, you are loading the right elbow with effectively no real rotation so rather than load against the 'top' of the shaft as in swinging, you are loading more on the 'side' of the shaft. A 90 degree difference - always loading the shaft at 90 degrees to the direction of the loading force in either case.

When you use a horizontal hinge 'hit' you aren't using the full benefits of CF and you are 'forced' to time the squaring of the clubface manually. In other words, since you didn't allow the rotation back, you must 'make' it happen coming through, which is an inconsistent way to play.

As combinations go, loading for hitting and then horizontal hinging isn't the worst, because it does make it easier to hit a draw. The question is the ability to control just how much draw.

The opposite case, loading for swinging and then angled hinging, is an easy way to hit a fade, and again, the question is the ability to control just how much fade.

The force vectors just are less compatible than for a 'straight' ball. As long as you understand the shot shapes that naturally result from each, you can play effectively with any combination. I suspect this is why Homer stated that hinge action does not differentiate hitting and swinging.

Very good post Ed-Miester, Eddie-Jam, Ed-A-Rama.

Also, Dave, the recommendations are for uncompensated (unmanipulated) strokes.

[Bagger Lance]

Jeez Ed, I'm about to revolk your Swingers Emergency Room badge!
Great post. I think it's safe to say Ted has some solid backup.

Bagger

[ChrisNZ]

I was just thinking about something similar today, while hitting (or is that swinging, or right arm swinging!!!) some pitch shots, working on my Tomasello motion. In my view the Tomasello motion certainly has right forearm thrust through the ball, but also tends more naturally towards a horizontal hinge. What I was thinking about was this (and it could well be wrong!):

With centrifugal force in swinging, the force is working out, perpendicular to the plane line when viewed from above, away from the centre (left shoulder). Such a force tends towards horizontal hinging.

With hitting and right arm thrust, force tends down the angle of approach, or viewed from above, across the plane line but not at a 90 degree angle.

With the Tomasello motion (Australia video) - the arms go down and then Tom exhorts one to hit 'OUT at the ball'!!! My feel with this move is not the angled (to the plane line from above) force of hitting, but truly out at 90 degrees (or close to it). This gives me a horizontal hinge, or an angled hinge which is close to a horizontal hinge.

Anyway, here's my thesis: force at 90 degrees to the plane line (viewed from above) 'naturally' gives a horizontal hinge, whether by centrifugal force, or right forearm thrust; force parallel to the plane line 'naturally' gives a vertical hinge; between these two gives varieties of angled hinge, tending more towards horizontal or vertical depending on how cross or along the line the force is.

By the way, in thinking of the force vector, I think it is best to think of it in relation to the left shoulder if that makes sense.

chris

[YodasLuke]

Jeez Ed, I'm about to revolk your Swingers Emergency Room badge!
Great post. I think it's safe to say Ted has some solid backup.

Bagger

Ed can be my Pilot OR Co-pilot anytime. He has sufficiently earned the Trust Badge. Also, it doesn't hurt you to surround yourself with people in the top .5% of I.Q.'s.

I think Ed's a closet hitter anyway. Although he's got a pure swing, he has the heart of a hitter!

[EdZ]

Ed can be my Pilot OR Co-pilot anytime. He has sufficiently earned the Trust Badge. Also, it doesn't hurt you to surround yourself with people in the top .5% of I.Q.'s.

I think Ed's a closet hitter anyway. Although he's got a pure swing, he has the heart of a hitter!

shhhhh.... don't tell anyone I've been hitting too!

Thanks for the kind words Ted. It sure did help my hitting motion to see your move in person at OCN last spring. Pure lasers, straight as a string.