Alternate target line

[Amen Corner]

Been in the incubator for a while. Lurking around on diff tgm sites and talking to other AI´s. Could it be explained as follows?

The Alternate Target Line is the line that the Sweetspot covers, also referred to as the Right Forearm Angle of Approach.

This "Angle of Approach" would be just that for Hitters but for Swingers it becomes an "Arc of Approach" because of the pivot rotation. If no rotation - Hitting - then it's Angle of Approach.


Thanks in advance

[12 piece bucket]

Been in the incubator for a while. Lurking around on diff tgm sites and talking to other AI´s. Could it be explained as follows?

The Alternate Target Line is the line that the Sweetspot covers, also referred to as the Right Forearm Angle of Approach.

This "Angle of Approach" would be just that for Hitters but for Swingers it becomes an "Arc of Approach" because of the pivot rotation. If no rotation - Hitting - then it's Angle of Approach.


Thanks in advance

The alternate target line is a line that connects the dots from the impact point to low point. Every swing complies to an alternate target line that is on-plane. You are correct that the Swinger could use the Arc of Approach (which is the Arc that connects the impact point and low point) versus using the true Geometric Plane Line. The Hitter on the other hand using the Angle of Approach Procedure dismisses the true Geometric Plane and used the 10-5-E Plane Line that IS the Angle of Approach (or Alternate Target Line).

The difference is that the Swinger complies with the Geometric Plane line by staying on the Arc but the Hitter using Angle of Approach Procedure continues OUT thus not in compliance with the Original 10-5-A line.

Holla fo' a Swedish Meatball!

[Yoda]

The Hitter on the other hand using the Angle of Approach Procedure dismisses the true Geometric Plane and used the 10-5-E Plane Line that IS the Angle of Approach (or Alternate Target Line).

Bucket is on the money here, but this is sticky stuff, and I want to give those readers interested ample opportunity to understand it.

Remember, the Plane Line is the 5th Component of the selected Stroke Pattern. It is that Line defined by the intersection of the Angled Plane of the Stroke and the horizontal plane of the ground, and it can be aligned on the Target Line (Square) or to its left (Open) or right (Closed).

In contrast, the Plane Angle and any Variation are Components #6 and #7. Here we are talking about the original Angle of Inclination of the Plane and any Shifts that may occur in this Angle during the Stroke. Any Shift in Plane Angle has no effect on the selected Plane Line (1-L-#18 ).

The important point here is that the Hitter's Angle of Approach procedure uses the Closed Plane Line of 10-5-E as the Guideline to the Stroke, but it does NOT use that Line as a new 'true Geometric Plane Line' (2-J-3). Such a Baseline would not only be aligned to the right of Target, it would also come complete with its own unique set of Arc and Angle of Approaches. These would conflict with the Arc and Angle of Approach of the original Geometric Plane Line, and the result would be an Inside-Out Stroke, not just an Inside-Out Impact (2-J-2; 2-N-0).

So, just how does the Hitter use the 10-5-E Delivery Line? He uses it as a Track that he covers with the Clubhead throughout the Stroke. Personally, I visualize a bowling alley gutter moving up the Angle of Attack, with the bowling ball (clubhead) remaining in the gutter during the Stroke (and not moving inside or outside it at any time). This is the Wheel TRACK Delivery Path of 7-23. And the necessarily steep Plane Angle erected on this Delivery Line must agree with the requirement to cover -- not merely 'point at' -- the Angle of Approach Delivery Line.

Summarizing, the Angle of Approach procedure uses the 10-5-E Plane Line as a Clubhead Delivery Line, but NOT as a true Geometric Plane Line. Otherwise, there would be an Angle of Approach to that new Baseline. And as Bucket has stated, the new Plane Line IS the Angle of Approach (of the original Geometric Plane Line).

[Yoda]

Amen Corner asked me today in a PM whether or not I felt the Vision Track training aid http://www.visiongolf.com/features.htm and its Alternative Target Line (Angle of Approach) could be used by Swingers. Here is my reply:

The Vision Track does indeed define the Angle of Approach Visual Equivalent (typically the Hitter's Delivery Line). Nevertheless, it can also help the Swinger using the Arc of Approach. Just make sure that the student continues to 'point at' the true Plane Line (usually the Target Line) as his clubhead moves Up Plane and Down in a Arc generally in line with the defined Angle of Approach. Also, make sure the student understands that the Clubhead is actually moving in a curved line and not directly in the straight line indicated by the Vision Track.

The danger, obviously, is that the student may begin to use the Angle of Approach as a new 10-5-E Baseline and begin to merely point at it (instead of actually covering it). This would result in an Under Plane, Inside-Out Stroke, as opposed to an On Plane Inside-Out Impact.

Bottom line: Whatever it takes to help our students learn to swing 'inside out' is a good thing, and I believe the Vision Track will help.

BTW, I use a simple dowel set-up to accomplish much of the same thing.

[golfbulldog]

"Pointing at" versus "covering" lines....

Laser/torches work well for tracing the geometric plane lines - i get this

Covering seems to work better when you have a club in your hand...anyone agree? ie. when you are really hitting the ball.

Sometimes the accuracy of tracing with a club can be poor and covering is an easier to acquire skill and use when you are practising with balls and sweetspots .... providing you have acquired the mental development to provide "object permanence" - it should not be too shocking!

If you buried ( in a fairway bunker for example) an "arc of approach" plastic strip ( flexible) partly underground ( ie. the bit from ball to low point and beyond) and left the remaining bit exposed as a visual aid for swingers backswing and downswing ( preimpact) it would appear to provide a better aid than the "vision track "for swingers ( because it shows arc not angle) AND (if sand were wet and firm) the shape of the divot would uncover the buried arc IF YOU WENT DOWN TO LOW POINT ON PLANE....

I think...?

Any comments?

[12 piece bucket]

"Pointing at" versus "covering" lines....

Laser/torches work well for tracing the geometric plane lines - i get this

Covering seems to work better when you have a club in your hand...anyone agree? ie. when you are really hitting the ball.

Sometimes the accuracy of tracing with a club can be poor and covering is an easier to acquire skill and use when you are practising with balls and sweetspots .... providing you have acquired the mental development to provide "object permanence" - it should not be too shocking!

If you buried ( in a fairway bunker for example) an "arc of approach" plastic strip ( flexible) partly underground ( ie. the bit from ball to low point and beyond) and left the remaining bit exposed as a visual aid for swingers backswing and downswing ( preimpact) it would appear to provide a better aid than the "vision track "for swingers ( because it shows arc not angle) AND (if sand were wet and firm) the shape of the divot would uncover the buried arc IF YOU WENT DOWN TO LOW POINT ON PLANE....

I think...?

Any comments?

I like it! I reckon you could just draw the Arc in the sand right? I always feel like I hit it better if I concentrate more on Out and Down than just Down. Down is too steep but Down and Out ON PLANE . . . . that's where it's at.

[3Putt]

So, just how does the Hitter use the 10-5-E Delivery Line? He uses it as a Track that he covers with the Clubhead throughout the Stroke. Personally, I visualize a bowling alley gutter moving up the Angle of Attack, with the bowling ball (clubhead) remaining in the gutter during the Stroke (and not moving inside or outside it at any time). This is the Wheel TRACK Delivery Path of 7-23. And the necessarily steep Plane Angle erected on this Delivery Line must agree with the requirement to cover -- not merely 'point at' -- the Angle of Approach Delivery Line.

This is a great visual. Through what sections of the stroke does covering the angle of approach delivery line apply? Specifically, is it covered beyond low point, as this quote implies (bolded above)?

If so, I have a problem closing the loop on this Angle of Approach procedure.
The intended inclined plane for this stroke has a 10-5-A configuration. The 10-5-E Delivery Line is just that - a delivery line that is a visual equivalent to the 10-5-A configuration. So if the 10-5-E delivery line is covered beyond low point, then the clubhead will be above the intended plane. The intended (geometric) plane line will be bent, violating a Basic Imperative.

I'm sure there is a flaw in my interpretation. Maybe it just "seems as if" the clubhead is above plane? I could use some help getting past this point.

Thanks.

[Yoda]

This is a great visual. Through what sections of the stroke does covering the angle of approach delivery line apply? Specifically, is it covered beyond low point, as this quote implies (bolded above)?

If so, I have a problem closing the loop on this Angle of Approach procedure.
The intended inclined plane for this stroke has a 10-5-A configuration. The 10-5-E Delivery Line is just that - a delivery line that is a visual equivalent to the 10-5-A configuration. So if the 10-5-E delivery line is covered beyond low point, then the clubhead will be above the intended plane. The intended (geometric) plane line will be bent, violating a Basic Imperative.

I'm sure there is a flaw in my interpretation. Maybe it just "seems as if" the clubhead is above plane? I could use some help getting past this point.

Thanks.

3Putt,

Yes, the Clubhead continues to cover the Angle of Approach Delivery Line beyond Low Point. The linear Right Triceps thrust drives the Clubhead above the original Plane during the Follow-Through. Visualize Arnie Palmer and his thrust to 'right field' and his 'whirly bird' Finish.

The straight line Angle of Approach Delivery Line is arbitrarily determined via the Impact and Low Points of the Geometric Plane Line (Square Plane Line per 2-J-3). Once that Delivery Line is established, the original Plane Angle and Line are no longer utililized and thus no longer relevant. The steepness of the new Plane Angle agrees with the Angle of Approach thus established.

[3Putt]

Once that Delivery Line is established, the original Plane Angle and Line are no longer utililized and thus no longer relevant.

This is the crux of the matter. Without your input, I would never have even contemplated that the original Plane Angle and Line could be considered "no longer relevant". After all, was that not the objective of the original stroke? I was viewing the Angle of Approach procedure as a mechanism to produce that on plane stroke (the original plane, that is)

3Putt

[Mike O]

Been in the incubator for a while. Lurking around on diff tgm sites and talking to other AI´s. Could it be explained as follows?

The Alternate Target Line is the line that the Sweetspot covers, also referred to as the Right Forearm Angle of Approach.

This "Angle of Approach" would be just that for Hitters but for Swingers it becomes an "Arc of Approach" because of the pivot rotation. If no rotation - Hitting - then it's Angle of Approach.


Thanks in advance

Some good information posted here but let's look at your post and clarfiy a few things that may not be obvious in regards to the way you worded your post - probably created by Mr. Kelley's poorly written work.

"The Alternate Target Line is the line that the Sweetspot covers"
No, strictly speaking the Alternate Target Line wouldn't apply to an Arc of an Approach. Per 2-J-3, the Alternate Target Line is the straight line connecting the impact point and low point. The Alternate Target Line is the straight line Angle of Approach of the Clubhead when the Clubhead would be approaching the plane line - in a straight line and not an arc - as viewed by the player. Certainly you did get the "Sweetspot covers" correct, I would just say not in all circumstances would that directly apply to the "Alternate Target Line", i.e. It doesn't reference the "Arc of Approach".

"The Alternate Target Line is the line that the Sweetspot covers, also referred to as the Right Forearm Angle of Approach."
No, the Alternate Target Line refers to the Straight Line Impact points as viewed by the player - for the straight line angle of approach of the clubhead i.e. sweetspot, as stated above. It doesn't strictly speaking have anything to do with the Right Forearm Angle of Approach- see 7-2.

This "Angle of Approach" would be just that for Hitters but for Swingers it becomes an "Arc of Approach" because of the pivot rotation.
I would go a little deeper and consider this a more complete thought: "but for Swingers it becomes an "Arc of Approach" because of the automatic greater pivot rotation caused by the method of acceleration- centrifugal force, compared to a right arm thrust hitting procedure.


"If no rotation - Hitting - then it's Angle of Approach."
You're implying that in Hitting with an Angle of Approach there would be no pivot rotation- nothing could be further from the truth. Sure, less rotation for Hitting than Swinging for any given player, but there is still plenty of rotation compared to no rotation.

I hope there is something in my reply that may help you. I do know that if one were to think that the alternate target line was the angle of approach of the clubhead, the arc of approach of the clubhead, the angle of approach of the right forearm - things would get seriously confusing. Also, if one thought that the primary cause for an arc or angle of approach was pivot rotation - things would get seriously confusing.