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-   -   Endless belt and release physics (http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5648)

Bagger Lance 06-04-2008 10:29 PM

Jeff,

I can't help you with the math. Depends on the horsepower of the boat, the effective boat draft, how hard the skier pulls the boat sideways, prop pitch and size, water surface conditions, ski design, rope length, etc. The greater the angle from the center of the boat to point C, the greater the angle of the ski "blade" otherwise the skier is decelerating.

Trust me, not much application to the golfers release but if you want to do the math, there are plenty of resources to put the puzzle pieces together. Not my cup-o-tea, I was only concerned about rounding the buoy's without dropping an elbow or rope in the water. That takes time off the score and ruins rhythm.

Some are Performers and some are Engineers. Rarely the two meet in a single individual, but we need each other collectively. I appreciate what you are attempting here Jeff.

About that left shoulder movement. Can you quote VJ in context so there is no misunderstanding?

Thanks,

Jeff 06-05-2008 12:30 AM

Bagger - you wrote-: "The greater the angle from the center of the boat to point C, the greater the angle of the ski "blade" otherwise the skier is decelerating."

I cannot understand this point. If the curve passing through all the points A,B and C is a defined curve of a certain shape, then the angle of the ski blade must be constant at all times during the skier's passage along that curved path - irrespective of the angle of the skier to the boat. The angle of the rope changes, but the skiers blade angle must surely remain constant if he maintains a curved path of constant curvacture.

What do you want me to clear up about the left shoulder movement? I only made the point that the idea that the left shoulder remains "fixed" in space as the center of a circle with a fixed radius is not what happens in a "real life" golf swing in the late downswing - because i) the left shoulder socket is moving upwards, leftwards and backwards in the late downswing and ii) the distance between the left shoulder socket and the clubhead constantly changes as the clubshaft becomes progessively more in-line with the left arm in the late downswing.

Jeff.

Bagger Lance 06-05-2008 12:39 AM

I've always wished I could combine my passions but I could never reconcile skiing and golfing.

I'm not interested in discussing the skier analogy, but I am interested in your comment regarding VJ's view of Hogan's left shoulder.

"see the three white dots with interconnecting red lines. VJ's representation of Ben Hogan's left shoulder socket as being a single fixed point in space is an oversimplification, and it doesn't represent true reality. It is a gross over-simplification -"

Just want to make sure that VJ's representation is rooted in reality. I haven't read his book so I'm trusting that this statement is fair and contextually accurate.

Jeff 06-05-2008 12:50 AM

Bagger

Here is a copy of VJ's Impact Circle photo from his book.



Jeff.

12 piece bucket 06-05-2008 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53214)
From my reading of the TGM book, I gather the impression that HK believed that the club released in the downswing because of a change in direction of movement of the hands from a straight line path to a curved path, and that the endless belt model explains the release phenomenon. Conceptually, the endless belt model theorizes that the club will travel at the same speed as the hands until the hands enter the pulley section of the endless belt model. Then, as the hands turn around the pulley, the club will accelerate relative to the hands and this represents the release phenomenon. However, this conceptual model is dependent on there being a straight line path movement of the hands in the early/mid downswing followed by a curved hand path later in the downswing, and "reality" doesn't seem to confirm this fact. If one looks at the hand path of professional golfers, their hand path is always curved and there is no straight line section. Here are two examples.

Bobby Jones strobe photo.



Tiger Woods photo



I used the slow motion Nike commercial swing video of Tiger Woods to produce this image. The red lines represent the clubshaft. The yellow lines represent the left arm (and I only plotted the left arm's location in the later downswing so as not to have too many lines cluttering the image). The green line is a hand-drawn line that plots the sequential movement of the hands over time. Point X is the point when release of the club is definitely apparent, although there is seemingly a small degree of release earlier.

Note that the hand path in both these images is near-circular, and there is no straight line path. Therefore, "reality" doesn't support HK's endless belt concept as explaining the release phenomenon.

Surely, a much better explanation is this mathematical model, which demonstrates that the club develops angular acceleration at all time points in the downswing when the pull on the grip is at an angle to the COG of the clubshaft.

http://nmgolfscience.tripod.com/release.htm

Jeff.

Jeff . . . keep in mind that Homer was simply using the Endless Belt to illustrate a CONCEPT. I don't think Homer ever thought that hands move on anything but an Arc. It is the player's intent to move the hands in a straight line . .. but as you say in reality that don't happen. I'm sure that Homer was certainly aware of that fact.

The Endless Belt is a nice way to think about things particularly with different "pulley diameters" contolled by hand path and #3 angle.

12 piece bucket 06-05-2008 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53230)
Donn

I posted this photo



You then responded as follows-: "The picture of Tiger, sure shows the Impact Circle Axis and the Left Shoulder Center of Impact Circle that V.J. presents in his book."

You are making a big mistake. In constructing my composite photo, I only used one image of Tiger Woods, and superimposed the yellow lines on that photo to show the general change in position of the left arm in the downswing time sequence. However, those yellow lines do not point at the same point, because the left shoulder is always changing position.

Here is the true reality.



I used a spline tool to trace the movement of Tiger's left shoulder during the mid/late downswing. You can see that his left shoulder continuously moves upwards and to the left as the downswing progresses - see the three white dots with interconnecting red lines. VJ's representation of Ben Hogan's left shoulder socket as being a single fixed point in space is an oversimplification, and it doesn't represent true reality. It is a gross over-simplification - equivalent to representing Ben Hogan's downswing clubshaft plane with a single plane line when the clubshaft is actually changing planes continuously as it moves down from the turned shoulder plane (at the end-backswing) to the hand plane (at impact).

Jeff.

Jeff . . . you make some good points here. I'd say that the point of the VJ illustration and what Homer would say is that the center of the shoulder turn needs to be far enough FORWARD to contol low point. That's all.

Jeff 06-05-2008 09:34 AM

12 piece bucket

I agree with you - the left shoulder must be well forward at impact to have a low point somewhere near the inside of the left heel.

Different golfers get the left shoulder to the "correct" impact location via different mechanisms. A S&T golfer, who has a small amount of left spinal tilt at the end-backswing (leftwards-centered swing style), will have to move the left shoulder far less to get the left shoulder to the 'correct" impact location than Tiger Woods, who has a rightwards-centered swing style.

By the way, I have altered the Tiger Woods photo by adding dotted yellow lines to demonstrate that the radius of the circle increases while the center of the circle moves leftwards/upwards/backwards.



Jeff.

dkerby 06-05-2008 11:45 AM

Straight Line delivery path vs Circle Delivery Path
 
Hello again Jeff. I am quoting a post by EdZ:

If you imagine the path of your hands traveling in your
motion as a wheel (7-23), the 'widest possible' path of
the hands would be a circle around your center of
balance.

In a straight line delivery, your hands go from the 'edge
of the rim' at the top, directly in a straight line INSIDE
the circle toward your aiming point/both arms straight
and at both straight they are again 'touching the
wheel rim'. A 'feel' of 'narrow to wide" (top to both arms
full extended). Adelayed release/max trigger delay and
a more powerful (but tougher to time) motion.

In a circle delivery path, your hands effectively 'attempt'
to STAY on the rim all the way 'around the circle'. A very
'wide' feel in which you release fully and smoothly from
the top - very nearly throw away. A very consistent, but
much less powerful motion, much simple to judge distance.

You post on pulley wheels seems to focus on the circle or angled
line delivery path rather than the straight line delivery path.
I am looking at the pictures of Diane on pgs 203-205 of the yellow
book.

Some where, I think that I remember Yoda saying to set the
#3 pressure point at the top and take it straight to the ball.

Are we missing that their are three possible TYPES of paths
the hands can take toward impact.

Donn

Jeff 06-05-2008 05:28 PM

Donn

You wrote-: "In a straight line delivery, your hands go from the 'edge of the rim' at the top, directly in a straight line INSIDE the circle toward your aiming point/both arms straight and at both straight they are again 'touching the wheel rim'."

I can understand the idea of mentally "directing" the hands to go in a straight line direction towards the aiming point, but I have never seen a straight hand arc in a "real life" golf swing. All the hand arcs that I have seen are curved arcs/paths that are C-shaped or slightly J-shaped.

If you have access to a golf swing showing a straight line hand path, please let me know - I would like to analyse it using my swing analyser program.

I can see Diane mimicing a straight line hand path in the early/mid downswing by pulling her hands down that white path on page 203 of TGM, but I have never seen that phenomenon in a "real life" professional golfer's swing.

One can try and pull the PP#3 point in a straight line direction straight down to the aiming point, but the hand arc/path will still be curved because while the hands are moving down in the direction of the aiming point, the body is pivoting and the arms are moving around the body at the same time, and the end-result is a curved hand path.


Jeff.

dkerby 06-05-2008 07:23 PM

Jeff, I don't have a picture of a straight line delivery path.
If one comes across I will let you know.
Maybe their is a curved arc or J-shaped path. The procedure
is called an Arc of Approach. Homer does say in 10-23-0
that the paths are taken by the hands - Not the club head
Your descriptions refer to the hands - correct. In 10-23-A,
STRAIGHT LINE, Homer says "This pattern holds the Hands
on a Delivery Path that is a straight line leading from the
Top-of-the-line hand position directly at and through the
Aiming Point (2-J-3) when there is no Plane Shifts (10-7)."
Homer mentions in 2-K that Only the Circumference is NOT a
straight line.

Even with a slight curve of the Arc, I do not believe that this
would be enough to invalidate the concept of the Endless Belt
Effect. The pictures of Diane swinging do not seem unusual to me.

Yoda put up some excellet pictures of of the Endless Belt Effect.
I do not know that he would want to get into the dissussion.

All the best, Donn


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