update
 

now im a plus 2.5 handicap looking to be plus 4 by the end of summer

Congratulations ! :thumright

Awesome Whip. What do you attribute it to?

Whip, to paraphrase my peeps here at school, "You is a beast!" I am guessing you use an Angle Hinge "ALOT!!!" and your short game is very, very solid.


ICT

Thanks! here is my stroke pattern

1.Interlock
2.Strong single action
3.Pitch
4.Triple barrel
5.Square-square
6.Elbow
7.Double-shift
8.Half and half
9.Standard
10.Dual horizontal
11.Triple 2/3/4
12.Standard
13.Standard
14.Standard
15.Delayed
16.Right anchor
17.Flat left
18.Standard
19.Drag
20.Shoulder turn throw with wrist throw
21.End
22.Random sweep
23.Top arc and angled line
24.Automatic Random sweep
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKqoU9Q8eUU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGVump8V_WA

Loving your picture with hands on right thigh on downstroke muuuuch better'n the one we are analyzing on the other thread :)....

At around :14, your hips stall, which results in throwaway. You are waiting for your hands to pass in front of your zipper, which should never happen on the DS. :naughty:

Working on it

The more i go through this system the more i voluntarily want to get away from left over feels and their mechanics from old habits and comforts, and do more of the mechanics that homer says, not because i know i ought to be doing them, but because i WANT to because THEY WORK.

One of the biggest challenges in swing development. Most good players can't do it. And, the better they are, the harder it is. You appear to be one of the few who can! :salut:

Amazing changes
 

Amazing Changes after working with GSEM Greg Smith and training on the C-Plane.

what is "c-plane"? never heard of it....

I like the leg action much better...what are y'all working on?



You using horizontal hinging? See Hogan's clubface at a similar spot....your "pivot" look is similar...I do remember from your swing caddy view the head wanted to move back some...Hogan goes forward big time...will slow the face down....

www.thecplane.com It's a padded swing plane structure I designed and created as homer says in 4-d-0 "construct an inclined plane" so I did...

Check out the "swing plane devices" thread in the training aids forum. I created it to help me with this whole Process...

hard to compare hogan there not really in the same spot, not sure what kinda shot he's playing

Hogan swings on a flatter plane, however the body positions are very similar. I especially like the 2nd photo where the hips look a bit more open, a little more waist bend, and the inside of the thighs almost touching - a la Al Geiberger. =D>

Not sure about comparisons with hogan or if that pictured can be compared to mine, my three pictures were to show how the feet and knees improved greatly over time

We are Working on
7-3 (10-3-B) (12-5-1 no. 17 and 12-5-3 no.13)
10-7-C
10-15-B
10-22-B
7-14(2-N-1-B)
10-13-A(6-M-1(6-H-0-F no. 2))
10-23-D
10-3-B
6-B-3-0 (10-15-B, 10-13-A)


All these numbers may look extremely complicated but it really simplifies the process by breaking down and understanding only the components that are relevant to me as assembled by Greg Smith

By working on these components in sequence and understanding their relationship to one another I now have a better sense for the total motion.

1-E To properly adjust, compensate, interchange, and correct every component, and to detect imprecisions, is the instructor's function. The students need to know only the factors and components, etc., of their particular stroke patterns as recommended and assembled by the instructor. Or themselves. The student who can play and practice only occasionally should not be induced to proceed on the lines of detail and precision that a prospective champion would need

Cool...will check out....

Hard to say on Hogan....but you see that face position quite a bit...more closing and laying back than closing only...of course you can hit "all the shots" with any hinge motion.....I'm an angled hinging cat...so may just be a personal preference as to "look"/function....but your pics look nice.

I prefer dual horizontal for the long game

Somewhere YODA relayed the idea from Homer Kelley that Horizontal Hinging offered the greater compression of the available hinge actions.

Kevin

that however does not make it superior!

The long and short games
 

I mostly prefer adjusted address and dual horizontal for the long game. impact address and angled hinge for the short game.

I agree, that just makes it it's strong point, just as angled hinging has its own strong points. IMO that would be a slower rate of closure. Perhaps more accurate and easier to time?

No best way. :salut:

Kevin

Perhaps, for personal application, but all hinge actions can be equally as accurate, however only dual horizontal produces, maximum deformation of the golf ball, and for true swingers is naturally produced, thus you dont have to manipulate anything.

Whip, I obviously agree with your second point, and I think the first point is a little more player/pattern dependent. I fancy myself as a hitter using Horizontal Hinging, and that probably isn't optimal, but it's what I got, where Mr. Kelley explains that HH is optimal for a swinger.

Please see my signature. :) :salut:

Kevin

By the way, VERY IMPRESSED with the work you have done on your swing, I wouldn't take you on even with 2 a side!!! :salut: :salut: :salut:

Kevin

For sure kev you were not wrong though, each player will most likely have his best work with one or another which will not be the same for all, nothing wrong with horizontal hitting different strokes for different folks. I simply wanted to point out, (because homer did) that even though the rates of closure change etc. Homer Wanted to make it clear that they are all equally capable (consistency and accuracy wise) but only dual horizontal gives maximum deformation of the golf ball. Let's get out and play! Thanks for the encouragement!

Hey Bucket , this photo here is a hands manipulated shot isn't it? A hold off, chicken wing cut maybe? I don't see this as his usual release . You saying this is where you wanna be face wise, generally speaking?


I dunno.

Chicken wing? Is the clubshaft pointing at the plane? Is the face cutting plane vs. laying on it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=S5swNm6SofQ

Hey Bucket, studying your posts about Eddies pattern, and the Palmer pics got the noodle thinking, I wonder if angled hinging is more compatible with rotated shoulders? I'll check chapter 11 and see if Homer mentions it. Just running back some swings in my head and it is making sense. What do you think? I'm loving these ideas your espousing BTW! To me it ties very nicely to last years great thread about the shoulders pushing the arms if properly aligned :salut:

Kevin

So here's my initial pass on your query ...... rotated shoulder turn goes better with "flatter" plane angles.... with the associated hand path...the hands are NEVER above the right shoulder (backstop...launching pad)....so no waste in getting the hands back in line with the shoulder before the right forearm pushes out the sweetspot...sweetspot can be pushed out almost immediately....plus if the hands are lifted above the right shoulder the body has to stay turned in order for the hands to "drop" in line...this gets the momentum of the club falling behind...which is more of a swinging move...plus that staying turned lends itself to the spine tilting back flywheel style.

Thanks Bucket, good stuff as always!

left out the big part....hitting and sequence released throw over produce ....ANGLED HINGING....

Hogan is not laying the face on the plane in the photo in question several posts back. Just saying it looks like a hold off or angled hinge to me. Like he was hitting a specific type of shot as opposed to his normal garden variety release...

Its a great photo , but not something you wanna do all the time for every shot, I don't think.

Personally, I like Horizontal Hinging , when done correctly , meaning not over rolled like some have prescribed . Uh, what the heck is a "full roll" supposed to mean for instance?

As an aside there are no short cuts to understanding Hinge Action. You have to get into the three basic planes , the feel of the roll or the look of the face alone can lead you astray , quickly . Take grip rotation for instance .... it ruins the look of the face for those that use the face as reference.

Bucket I love you mang , when you talk about flashing faces etc are you talking about over rolling? You know who style full-roll-a-zontal? You aren't anti properly executed Horizontal are you? Na.. forget I asked.

The finish swivel as taught by Yoda was HUGE for my understanding and teaching. I tend to incorrectly lump finish swivel with HH. Do you guys incorporate the finish swivel when angled hinging, or do you use that "hold off" look in your finish?

Kevin

All players swivel for the on plane finish (although no one finishes on plane except for Alex Sloan)

Thanks Whip! I don't get the Alex Sloan reference though...

KC

progress
 

Sometimes this process can seem like :BangHead:, sometimes it seems that no matter what you do you just can't change your motion. your body is a stubborn machine that fears change and no matter how logical your approach, it fights it every step. You just don't know what part of the process you'll get hung up on, some things come easy and others take the jaws of life to break free. For me it's my right arm, it doesn't wanna straighten in the downswing it wants to hold it's bend meanwhile the left wrist is flying out early. The other day talking with my teacher i realized how my body truly perceived the golf swing despite all the information i have, my body still wanted to do its own thing. I have been trying a Million things to get it to straighten and i truly got discouraged to the point of almost giving up. It seems I could never get my right forearm on plane at release, it seemed i could never get my right arm to straighten without uncocking the left wrist. It needed time to incubate in my head but i think the egg has finally started to chip open. this is HUGE for me, granted i still have a TON of other things to improve and this is just practicing with a foam ball in the apartment (full speed swing though) but this was something that was so hard for me to change even without a ball.

Attachment 2825

I don't think the Right Arm and therefore the right elbow, is on the Inclined Plane till around Impact. It should be under the Inclined Plane at the Release Point no?

As for a straightening right arm and the left wrist then uncorking isn't that way its supposed to be? The Magic of the Right Forearm. The right arm lifts and lowers , cocks and uncorks the left wrist etc. Maybe Im miss reading your post.

Weird , Im working on just the opposite with my right arm , trying to keep it bent longer. Actually come to think of it, I know the perfect way to straighten your right arm early ..... hold your Right Shoulder back in Startdown. If the Right Shoulder stalls and the hands keep moving down plane ...... the right elbow must be straightening. Thats how I do it. Also known as a pivot stall.

How do you know the hatless guy? Love his swing.

Sorry if Im miss reading the above in some way.

think swinging action think charles howell III
 

just trying to get more in the ball park ob not necessarily exactly on it but where i was, my right arm was way tooo bent at release and my downstroke sequence tended to throw the wrist cock out before releasing 4 and passive 1(right arm straightening).

regarding the right elbow and release...

from 7-20

"so with the downstroke waggles, verify-- through the hands only--that the right elbow will be on plane before triggering to assure accurate tracing for the follow through. Especially with Delayed Release this will rotate the left hand in a swiveling action as required for rhythm"

and if your elbow is on plane and the hands are on plane, well your forearm is too.

the hitter uses simultaneous release, the swinger uses sequenced release. The swinger can release 4 and 1 without releasing 2 via the mandatory flexible wrists and its rope pulling, arrow pulling longitudinal acceleration.

the right arm cocks the left wrist in the backstroke for the swinger but it need not uncock the left wrist as it straightens in the downstroke. remember regarding the left wrist and right wrist in a delayed release procedure...trigger delay alters little geometrically but magnifies the physics. variations in trigger delay are possible only because the cocked left wrist allows the right elbow to straighten faster than the left arm would otherwise allow. the greater the delay, the more rapid the paddlewheel action and the more swivel-like it becomes without increasing the actual endless belt speed of the left hand

combine that with pivot and it doesn't take much right arm bend down there because the pivot moves it forward in space without it moving forward or extending independently, for me i'm almost feeling as if both arms get straight well before impact, this of course is a tricky thing because it need be by the left arm pulling the right arm straight and not the right arm straightening actively and without muscular effort and tension

check out charles howell III he really gets that sucker on plane down there and really straightens the right arm without uncocking the left wrist, davis love pretty good too but of course disregard the tour players cuz they're doing a lot of stuff!

tension is the enemy in all of this and I'm aware of it now more than ever, tension turns my swinging action into a wannabe hitting/swinging/steering/throwaway tension filled disaster

btw ur advice is the same as one of the tips he gave me

what i have to remember too is that maximum trigger delay noticeably restricts maximum handspeed, in an attempt to straighten the right arm without uncocking the left wrist i inadvertantly try to get it straight faster and faster of course this is counter-intuitive as it makes the left wrist fly out sooner as it must.

golf is hard:crybaby: but im not giving up :golfcart:

This is a great post. I know some guys who really work the 4,1 but passive till almost straight then 2, 3. They've branched off a bit theoretically in a lot of what they do. Thats ok by me, what ever works. But I see you as having a pretty classic motion ... did you change instructors? Kidding!

Let me think on this stuff for a bit.

In the mean time here's my theoretical sticking point re getting the right arm on plane for any extended period of time (or near to it). Assuming the Right Arm Flying Wedge can stay intact throughout the swing and I think it can , should. In Startup assuming some amount of Right Wrist Bend any rotation of the shaft (which stays on plane lets say , leaving out the LCOG for simplicity) would rotate the Right Forearm under plane. The Right Forearm or an extension there of would thus point above the plane line. This would hold for any angled , bent thing , stick , branch whatever. I know Homer talks about Tracing with the right forearm but how can that be? Unless of course there was no rotating of the shaft and therefor face..........but wouldn't that be Steering?

So in short I see tracing with the #3pp , I see the shaft staying on plane and rotating but not with the Right Arm staying on plane assuming any Right Wrist bend.

Glad this has come up...

Attachment 2827

from the start down the arrow is drawn out of the quiver feather end first, the left arm pulling the cocked left wrist down the plane pulling the right arm straight onto the plane,at this point in the swing the right forearm is on plane with a slight bend as at impact, utilizing the endless belt the left wrist finally in a swivel-like action uncocks and rolls instantly while the right arm has hardly changed anything until the roll of the #3 accumulator and pivot pulls the right arm straight to the follow through. think left arm left side pulling in a swinging action the right arm is passive, forget the right arm in a left arm swing downstroke, it is being pulled. the point at which you uncock and roll that right arm is just making its fanning, pitching motion following the left hand, being pulled straight
Attachment 2828