Originally Posted by golfbulldog

If I understand this correctly then as :-

-one of the key diferences between Hitter and Swinger is the position of the right elbow on downswing -Pitch or Punch positions.

- it therefore seems natural that there would be a difference in elbow positions at Top / End of backswing to prepare for this.

- Hitters have an elbow position ( and hence forearm position) that loads the side of the shaft( clubshaft on plane but pointing upwards and behind you). In my mind this has elbow pointing more outwards than downwards - ?? almost like "flying elbow"?? maybe

- Swingers elbow position is more downwards , pointing at ground?? because the club is now parallel to ground and the loading is against the top of the shaft( clubface on plane, shaft parallel to plane line)

- Take your hitting elbow position at top (more sticking out ) and try to swing ( ie. get to pitch position = down and in front of right hip) and you are struggling. (as per Annikin's last post)

Is this correct interpretation? Photos would be nice please. Just trying to spell it out for the learners like myself!

Thanks for any help.

Originally Posted by EdZ

Yes, that is pretty much it in my view. How the right forearm flying wedge forms the 90 degree angle to support the shaft - either 'under' it for a swinger or 'behind' it for a hitter.

Their difference, to a large degree, the amount of rotation allowed going back.

If both flying wedges are maintained properly (the right wrist does not cock and the left wrist is cocked by the right elbow motion) the difference visually can be subtle, but the feel is very clear, especially for a swinger using standard wrist action and startup swivel.

Originally Posted by golfbulldog

If I understand this correctly then as :-

-one of the key diferences between Hitter and Swinger is the position of the right elbow on downswing -Pitch or Punch positions.

- it therefore seems natural that there would be a difference in elbow positions at Top / End of backswing to prepare for this.

- Hitters have an elbow position ( and hence forearm position) that loads the side of the shaft( clubshaft on plane but pointing upwards and behind you). In my mind this has elbow pointing more outwards than downwards - ?? almost like "flying elbow"?? maybe

- Swingers elbow position is more downwards , pointing at ground?? because the club is now parallel to ground and the loading is against the top of the shaft( clubface on plane, shaft parallel to plane line)

- Take your hitting elbow position at top (more sticking out ) and try to swing ( ie. get to pitch position = down and in front of right hip) and you are struggling. (as per Annikin's last post)

Is this correct interpretation? Photos would be nice please. Just trying to spell it out for the learners like myself!

Thanks for any help.

Originally Posted by Mike O

Golfbulldog:
I'd say that you understand the basic ideas of hitting and swinging-given the above post. Yet at the same time - as with alot of the Golfing Machine there's alot of room for potential mis-interpretation- either by the poster or the reader. So depending on who's reading- here's where I would clarify- realizing they might mis-interpret these following areas of your post.


-one of the key diferences between Hitter and Swinger is the position of the right elbow on downswing -Pitch or Punch positions.
Probably the only difference between hitting and swinging is the method of acceleration- push or pull, so while Hitting does tend to produce Punch elbow positions- it wouldn't necessarily be a key difference between Hitting and Swinging- in that you could have a swinger using a punch elbow position and a Hitter using a Pitch elbow position- normally with Float Loading is where that possibility would arise. Also, remember that the elbow positions are defined at waist level on the downswing- not at impact- both hitter and swinger end up at impact essentially the same i.e. left wrist FLV- right forearm position pointing crossline in the direction of the back of the left wrist, etc.



- Hitters have an elbow position ( and hence forearm position) that loads the side of the shaft( clubshaft on plane but pointing upwards and behind you). In my mind this has elbow pointing more outwards than downwards - ?? almost like "flying elbow"?? maybe

- Swingers elbow position is more downwards , pointing at ground?? because the club is now parallel to ground and the loading is against the top of the shaft( clubface on plane, shaft parallel to plane line)
Probably best to keep the length of the backswing the same in both comparisons- otherwise anything that goes to parallel would be swinging, etc. Anotherwords, the length of the backswing is not the distinguishing characteristic in regards to why the forearm points more "down towards the ground" for the swinger. Take it back to say 3/4's, in both examples, as you say for swinging you are just stopping and loading the shaft that's on plane where in Hitting you are stopping and loading the entire primary lever assembly - that is the left arm and clubshaft- unless with a zero number three accumulator - that primary lever assembly is always traveling on a flatter plane since the left shoulder is not on plane- so the flatter the plane the more "out" the forearm has to point- to get in line with and oppose to the loading motion.

At least that's a couple of thoughts- whether important additions or not- who knows- depends on the reader.

Originally Posted by Mike O

Golfbulldog:
I'd say that you understand the basic ideas of hitting and swinging-given the above post. Yet at the same time - as with alot of the Golfing Machine there's alot of room for potential mis-interpretation- either by the poster or the reader. So depending on who's reading- here's where I would clarify- realizing they might mis-interpret these following areas of your post.


-one of the key diferences between Hitter and Swinger is the position of the right elbow on downswing -Pitch or Punch positions.
Probably the only difference between hitting and swinging is the method of acceleration- push or pull, so while Hitting does tend to produce Punch elbow positions- it wouldn't necessarily be a key difference between Hitting and Swinging- in that you could have a swinger using a punch elbow position and a Hitter using a Pitch elbow position- normally with Float Loading is where that possibility would arise. Also, remember that the elbow positions are defined at waist level on the downswing- not at impact- both hitter and swinger end up at impact essentially the same i.e. left wrist FLV- right forearm position pointing crossline in the direction of the back of the left wrist, etc.



- Hitters have an elbow position ( and hence forearm position) that loads the side of the shaft( clubshaft on plane but pointing upwards and behind you). In my mind this has elbow pointing more outwards than downwards - ?? almost like "flying elbow"?? maybe

- Swingers elbow position is more downwards , pointing at ground?? because the club is now parallel to ground and the loading is against the top of the shaft( clubface on plane, shaft parallel to plane line)
Probably best to keep the length of the backswing the same in both comparisons- otherwise anything that goes to parallel would be swinging, etc. Anotherwords, the length of the backswing is not the distinguishing characteristic in regards to why the forearm points more "down towards the ground" for the swinger. Take it back to say 3/4's, in both examples, as you say for swinging you are just stopping and loading the shaft that's on plane where in Hitting you are stopping and loading the entire primary lever assembly - that is the left arm and clubshaft- unless with a zero number three accumulator - that primary lever assembly is always traveling on a flatter plane since the left shoulder is not on plane- so the flatter the plane the more "out" the forearm has to point- to get in line with and oppose to the loading motion.

At least that's a couple of thoughts- whether important additions or not- who knows- depends on the reader.

Originally Posted by Mike O

Golfbulldog:
I'd say that you understand the basic ideas of hitting and swinging-given the above post. Yet at the same time - as with alot of the Golfing Machine there's alot of room for potential mis-interpretation- either by the poster or the reader. So depending on who's reading- here's where I would clarify- realizing they might mis-interpret these following areas of your post.


-one of the key diferences between Hitter and Swinger is the position of the right elbow on downswing -Pitch or Punch positions.
Probably the only difference between hitting and swinging is the method of acceleration- push or pull, so while Hitting does tend to produce Punch elbow positions- it wouldn't necessarily be a key difference between Hitting and Swinging- in that you could have a swinger using a punch elbow position and a Hitter using a Pitch elbow position- normally with Float Loading is where that possibility would arise. Also, remember that the elbow positions are defined at waist level on the downswing- not at impact- both hitter and swinger end up at impact essentially the same i.e. left wrist FLV- right forearm position pointing crossline in the direction of the back of the left wrist, etc.



- Hitters have an elbow position ( and hence forearm position) that loads the side of the shaft( clubshaft on plane but pointing upwards and behind you). In my mind this has elbow pointing more outwards than downwards - ?? almost like "flying elbow"?? maybe

- Swingers elbow position is more downwards , pointing at ground?? because the club is now parallel to ground and the loading is against the top of the shaft( clubface on plane, shaft parallel to plane line)
Probably best to keep the length of the backswing the same in both comparisons- otherwise anything that goes to parallel would be swinging, etc. Anotherwords, the length of the backswing is not the distinguishing characteristic in regards to why the forearm points more "down towards the ground" for the swinger. Take it back to say 3/4's, in both examples, as you say for swinging you are just stopping and loading the shaft that's on plane where in Hitting you are stopping and loading the entire primary lever assembly - that is the left arm and clubshaft- unless with a zero number three accumulator - that primary lever assembly is always traveling on a flatter plane since the left shoulder is not on plane- so the flatter the plane the more "out" the forearm has to point- to get in line with and oppose to the loading motion.

At least that's a couple of thoughts- whether important additions or not- who knows- depends on the reader.

Originally Posted by jaminid

I have never fully understood the "directly opposed to secondary/primary lever assembly". When I read the section literally, I can't picture either being possible. I've had this discussion before, but can anybody shed some light on the subject?