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Quote:

Originally Posted by RatherBeGolfing

Have I missed something??? :confused1

12 piece bucket, has never even answered the 2 questions asked by Denny . Doing the razz el dazzle, like the the Broadway play Chicago, must also work in golf, or at least for some.

Open your eyes folks, clear your mind and read and reread this thread. This is not an easy subject. :read:

Many have demonstrated it, but how many understand it. Further more, how can one effectively demonstrate something they do not completely understand? This is why we are here :read:

Treating a complex subject or action as though is were simple, multiplies its complexity because of the difficulty in systematizing missing and unknown factors or elements. Demanding that golf instruction be kept simple does not make it simple - only incomplete and ineffective. Unless this is recognized, golf remains a vague, frustrating, infuriating form of exertion. T.G.M 1-B 7th Edition

Why you dissin' me? I tried to answer them . . .

Here's what he asked again . . .

does the staight line thrust of #3 from the top go to the inside aft quadrant of the ball or does the straight line thrust of #3 from the to go to the hand location at impact ?
Straight Line Thrust is Crossline to the Ball or Aiming Point

is there an arc of the hands from release point to impact hand location with the line delivery paths? would this arc of the hands make it so the straight line thrust from the top to release or the straight line thrust from top to impact hand location are not equivalent?
would a straight line path from top to impact hand location lead to "too much foward lean" and/or swaying?
Yes even with Straight Line Delivery there is an Arc of the hands which is the Pulley portion. No. Impact Fix Hand Location is just moving the hands into a position where it looks to the player that the hands are over the left toe. That can be accomplished and should be present with any of the delivery paths. Maybe?

sorry 12 piece,i think my initial question was ambiguous. i was referring to the straight line delivery path and not delivery lines(angle of approach).
i may have added more confusion by interpreting in 6-c-2-a, "the straight line thrust of the #3 pressure point toward the angle of approach quadrant of the ball-or aiming point per 1-f , 1-l-9/10 , 2-j-3 and 6-e-2." as the DELIVERY PATH since it too is on the inclined plane.
the pictures of 10-24-e probably answers my initial question. the straight line path goes from the top to the ball and not the hand location at impact even though the hands are in front of the ball and have yet to be released.
in fact every picture of the straight line delivery path appears to go to the ball and not straight to the impact hand location.it also appears that there is a highlighted arrow pointing to the ball, indicating the direction of the straight line thrust ?
Yes. It could be the ball or the aiming point.

so it sounds as if we are in agreement ! i realize this is a smaller pulley, i realize the aiming point is on the delivery path, i realize that you are trying to get the hands to their impact location while maintaining the necessary aligments, etc.

but my question is, AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN (and maybe you answered it), is the PICTUIRE 10-24-e #1& 2, AND/OR ALL OTHER PICTURES OF THE STRAIGHT LINE PATH CORRECT in that the STRAIGHT LINE DELIVERY PATH IS STRAIGHT TO THE BALL!!!! OR SHOULD THE STRAIGHT LINE BE DIRECTED AT SOME OTHER POINT!!!
The straight line delivery path locates the aiming point which could be the ball or a point in front or behind it.

Razzle Dazzle fizzled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RatherBeGolfing

Bucket,

Don't have any idea where RBG's comment is coming from either. Your posts demonstrate a deep and uncommon understanding of the complexities of TGM. Your thoughts, explanations and insights are inspired and often provide unrivaled clarity.

I'm certain many others appreciate and learn from your efforts as well. Please keep this in mind and avoid getting too distracted by detractors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tobell

Thanks man . . . I ain't mad. I was pretty sure I had at least attempted to answer his questions directly. Maybe not.

No biggie because I learned a lot while I studied it.

Thanks for the kind words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by denny

12 piece,
again these are hard questions but i think there is some ambiguity as to what the straight line effort is.there appear to be two straight lines.
the aiming point is on the delivery line. which is equivalent to the plane line.which is on the ground. as you note, this guides the right forearm,clubshaft,and clubhead. this is the in and out portion of the inclined plane. the aiming point is on this line behind, in front of or at the ball.
when homer says that, "the HANDS must ALWAYS take one of the delivery paths (10-23)but even with the circle path the thrust is still a straight line effort toward the aiming point. this is a straight line effort because it is on an inclined plane. but it is only the outward portion of the inclined plane."there is also a strongly downward element of the three dimensional impact."(6-e-2-1)
now we have the straight line effort, not only OUT, but also DOWN. so we have a straight line delivery line or its equivalent and a straight line delivery path.
in the second edition homer defines 10-23-A,straight line as; "this pattern holds the hands on a delivery path that is a straight leading from the top-of-the-line hand position directly at the AIMING POINT. and 10-23-c top-arc-and straight line as; this pattern takes the hands beyond the top-of-the-line point, up and back along an arc that is retraced when the hands return to the top of the line point.they are then directed toward the BALL on the samepath as "A" above(straight line).
in subsequent editions he does not refer to the ball but only the aiming point.but he always references 2-j-3 when he refers to the aining point, which is again the delivery line.it appears homer was saying that both of these straight lines need to be coordinated(with the on plane right forearm?).
since every picture of a straight line delivery path in the book( ALL EDITIONS AS FAR AS I CAN SEE)regardless of lag loading,trigger type,assembly point,loading action,DELIVERY PATH, and release all go to the ball, i have to assume that this is still the case, regardless of the aiming point being in front of the ball.endless belt( straight line portion) to the ball then the the pulley encounter before or in front of or at the ball, then to the impact hand location.

denny pointed out to me (i am denny's co-worker) that when you go straight line to a point in front of the ball with #3pp or hands the right forearm is not on plane,it points beyond the delivery line.
in the 5th edition mr. kelley states in 7-3, "therefore,having all these precision relationships, a properly postioned right forearm at impact fix, presents the precise plane angle and the precise angle of attack and the precise angle of the delivery path per 2-j-3 and 7-23 for any elbow position.THEN THE DELIVERY PATH WILL ALWAYS INETRSECT THE ANGLE OF APPROACH AT THE IMPACT POINT(PER 1-L-5 THROUGH -15)WITHOUT DISTURBING THE CLUBHAED ORBIT."
hope this makes everyting clear. ha!ha!

You make some good points . . . My contention would be that AMBIGUOUS . . . could be? . . . I would submit that there are OPTIONS rather than AMBIGUITY. I would sum it up like this. There is Geometry and then there is Physics . . . and then there is Motion . . . and then there is ACTION . . .AND THEN there are ILLUSIONS:

The Geometry of Golf has two aspects – the facts and the illusions, visual and sensory. When facts are understood, the illusions not only cease to mislead but can be utilized.

There is the Geometry of the Delivery Paths (and Lines) which your quote from the 5th does a superb job of describing. So this quote we would assume to be a statement of FACT. And if this is the case, then why have an Aiming Point at all? Why not just take the hands straight down the Straight Line Portion of the Delivery Path to the ball?

I would submit that the reason for Aiming Point is to utilize and employ what could be argued to be an ILLUSION to bring MORE PRECISION to the Snap Releases of different clubs lengths. Remember Mr. K said that the Aiming Point was basically SUBJECTIVE and could only be identified by EXPERIMENT. So this is a personal thing. So if the ball works then fine use it. But if it don't. Then adjust the Aiming Point to control the release (OR adjust the ball position and have ONE Aiming Point for the same release feel for different clubs).

And then there is the Physics associated with the same Delivery Paths and the Endless Belt. Per 3-F-7-E, The correct concept of an “On Plane” procedure is driving the Club – not “a little downward and a little outward” – but “Down Plane”. Down Plane to full extension. Per 7-23 with the Straight Line Delivery Path "The Player envisions - is consciously aware of - a straight line wheel TRACK motion (rather than its rotation) toward and throught the ball or THROUGH THE AIMING POINT."

So we must remember that the Aiming Point Concept is primarily used to control the Snap Releases which per 10-24-E 10-24-E AUTOMATIC SNAP RELEASE This procedure drives the Lag Pressure Point through a Snap Release (6-N-0) as if there were to be no Release at all. . . .This action is possible only through use of the Aiming Point Concept (6-E-2). So is precision Impact control.

And then there is MOTION and ACTION. Earlier we were discussing Impact Hand Location. To me that is MOTION. All procedures produce some Impact Hand Location and that would be MOTION. Thrust on the other hand is ACTION and all Strokes have Thrust regardless of the method selected to accelerate the club. Per 7-23:

Normally, Delivery ACTION (Thrust) is "Cross-Line" - Delivery Motion is "On Line", even at Low Point, because the Delivery Path Angle (direction) is ALWAYS the Right Forearm Angle of Approach (7-3) even with the Circle Delivery Path.

This to me means ACTION (Thrust - Physics) is ALWAYS as above ALWAYS not just a little down and out but ALL THE WAY DOWN AND ALL THE WAY OUT . . . and if that is the Ball cool . . . but if that don't work then you have the Aiming Point . . . or if you don't like that then you have the Impact Fix Hand Location Procedure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket

I would submit that the reason for Aiming Point is to utilize and employ what could be argued to be an ILLUSION to bring MORE PRECISION to the Snap Releases of different clubs lengths. Remember Mr. K said that the Aiming Point was basically SUBJECTIVE and could only be identified by EXPERIMENT. So this is a personal thing. So if the ball works then fine use it. But if it don't. Then adjust the Aiming Point to control the release (OR adjust the ball position and have ONE Aiming Point for the same release feel for different clubs).

And then there is the Physics associated with the same Delivery Paths and the Endless Belt.

I think it is interesting that Homer talks about laws and then leaves something as important as aiming point to the subjective.

Perhaps he was not taking into account the element of 'time' of applied force in loading and unloading action, combined with the location of a specific aiming point.

That is to say, there is a relationship between loading/unloading/release point and aiming point, certainly for a swinger using CF and the core variable is time.

I would think that hand/belt speed would come into play here, specifically during transition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by denny

12 piece bucket wrote,
"There is the Geometry of the Delivery Paths (and Lines) which your quote from the 5th does a superb job of describing. So this quote we would assume to be a statement of FACT. And if this is the case, then why have an Aiming Point at all? Why not just take the hands straight down the Straight Line Portion of the Delivery Path to the ball? "

12 piece,
i think this would be great!!!!

"The essence of Clubhead Lag technique is that it is always both aiming and thrust. Passive - it is primarily thrusting and lag pressure point. THe orbiting Clubhead does not seek out the ball - it seeks out the Deliviery line. But never directly only via the Right Forearm and the #3 pressure point per 2-F, 5-0 and 7-3. It is guided along that Line to the both arms straight configuration by the straight line thrust of the #3 pressure point toward the angle of approach quadrant of the ball or aiming point per 1-F, 1-L-9/10, 2-J-3, and 6-E-2."

now combine this with the straight line delivery path to the ball and we now have the delivery line and delivery path intersecting at impact.
sure we need our right forearm returning to its impact fix location but then we get 1-L-5 THROUGH 1-l-15 which is 11 out of the 21 characteristics of the basic golfing machine !!
but this has to be a great start for a precision downstroke !!

so aim your thrust straight line to a point at the upper portion on the inside aft quadrant of the ball with #3 pp.
unless you want a circle path or any of the other delivery paths that are not sraight line to the ball from the top because, as you note, everything is optional .

thanks,
comrade

I agree with you that this certainly makes perfect sense . . . HOWEVER . . . again there is Geometric Fact and then there are Illusions . . . which when they are UNDERSTOOD can be utilized to benefit the player. In this case the player can use an Aiming Point at which to direct or AIM pp3.

Also . . . the Impact Hand Location which we discussed earlier is an Illusion . . . from the player's perspective it SEEMS AS IF the hands cover the left toe . . . reality is different.

So bottom line as you said and as the genious that is Homer Kelley . . . we have options . . . lots of options some based in fact and others perception but perception can be reality too.

Many thanks to you as well. I hope that we have progressed. I know that sorting this out has helped me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by denny

So we must remember that the Aiming Point Concept is primarily used to control the Snap Releases which per 10-24-E 10-24-E AUTOMATIC SNAP RELEASE This procedure drives the Lag Pressure Point through a Snap Release (6-N-0) as if there were to be no Release at all. . . .This action is possible only through use of the Aiming Point Concept (6-E-2). So is precision Impact control.

thanks 12 piece,
its been a huge help to me.

the aiming point concept is there primarily to show the relationship between the handspeed , clubshaft length, and release point to allow "the #3 pp to return to impact fix hand location at impact with all delivery paths ,delivery lines,pulley sizes, etc..."

and also from 6-e-2, "...impact always occurs during the pulley portion of the endless belt travel."

but it would be especially useful to know, if you wanted to use an automatic snap release, that a small pulley would require a slower handspeed.

but consider the pictures 10-24-e 1 & 2. if the endless belt went from the top, straight to the release point would "the release sufficiently precede impact to develop the calculated velocity, thrust, and direction for the impact requirements" as mr. kelley reccomends in 7-24 without disturbing the clubhead orbit per 1-L-9 (regardless of how the lever assembly is driven it moves in a circle.)?

notice too that in the pictures 10-24-e 1& 2 the arrows are not in the same place. they are in all other pictures in 10-24. in 10-24-e #1 the arrow points at the very bottom of the delivery path ((indicating the line of downward thrust(2-c-o,angle of attack) ?)
while the second arrow points to the hands after they have hit the pulley encounter and have yet to be released.(first arrow = direction of downward thrust, second arrow = release point?)

"this procedure drives the lag pressure point through a snap release (6-n-o)as if there were no release point at all."10-24-e

and certainly the delivery path would not go straight line directly to the hand location at impact since the handspeed would theoretically be or approaching zero ! ha!ha!

your golfing machine comrade

Not completely sure about this . . . but an examination of the text that is supported by the pics would probably be a good place to find an answer . . .

10-24-D NON-AUTOMATIC SNAP RELEASE This procedure delays the Triggering of the Release as long as possible and still allows sufficient time to execute the deliberate maneuvering of a Non-Automatic Trigger Type so that the Hands will still arrive in Impact location and position at Impact. A strong, deliberate whiplash type of motion.

I think that "allowing time" is the key element in the above. With the Non-Automatic Snap Release as with all Non-Automatic Releases . . . "There may be a “Starting to Hit” in the Non-Automatic but not with the Automatic." So you must have TIME to "start to hit" and therefore the arrow is further up the Delivery Line.

10-24-E AUTOMATIC SNAP RELEASE This procedure drives the Lag Pressure Point through a Snap Release (6-N-0) as if there were to be no Release at all. This action is possible only through the use of the Aiming Point Concept (6-E-2). So is precision Impact control. A strong whiplash type of motion is very effective in understanding this procedure (Study 2-P, 6-B-2-0 and 10-11-3-0).

I think what the arrows are trying to show is in 10-24-E #1 the arrow is pointing at the point where the Line portion of the Delivery Path ends and the Pulley begins. However, in 10-24-E #2 the hands are still "driven as if there were to be no Release at all." But this is POSSIBLE ONLY THROUGH AIMING POINT. So even though the hands have encountered the Pulley they are still being driven in a Straight Line fashion but there motion is now circular. So maybe this is why the arrow in 10-24-E #2 is pointing at the hands?

and Per 6-N-0 . . .

The earlier in the Downstroke the Release occurs, the larger, longer and slower the Release Arc will be for both Clubhead and Hands. Other things being equal, this will require higher Hand Speed to produce yardages equivalent to that of the short quick arc of Maximum Delay. This involves Angular Speed which is measured by the number of degrees of an Arc through which the motion moves per second. From Release to Impact is just so many degrees of travel – at the Left Shoulder and/or at the Left Wrist. Doubling the travel time (for instance) halves the travel rate. Also see 2-P and 7-23.
The smaller the Release Arc (Endless Belt Pulley - constant Hand Speed) the faster the Right Elbow must straighten and the faster there will be "Extension" (Lever Assemblies 2-P) and "Overtaking" (6-F #3 Accumulator) until the Right Arm becomes straight. All without affecting The Travel Rate of the Endless Belt."

Denny here's something I found . . .

And posted a while back . . . This may be relevant to our discussion too.

http://theserver.theschool.columbia....s_pulleys.html

Check this out for more on Pulley stuff.

5. Decreasing Pulley Speed

Main Idea: If you use a small pulley wheel to drive a large pulley wheel, the large one will turn slower.

Additional Information: With this model, we have a pulley with a small driver wheel and a large follower wheel. It's really hard to make a wheel like the big one turn - it would take a lot of force. But with a smaller wheel, we can use a process called gearing down to help. Gearing down decreases speed but increases force. Since it's easy to turn a small wheel at a fast speed, we use it to move the large one. A small driver wheel makes a large follower wheel turn more slowly. Since this is a pulley model, both wheels turn in the same direction.

8. Gearing Up

Main Idea: If you use a large gear to drive a small gear, the small one will turn faster.

Additional Information: Here we see a large driver gear and a small follower. We can move the small gear pretty fast on our own, but we can use a process called gearing up to move it even faster. Gearing up increases speed, but decreases force. A good example of a gearing-up system in real life is a 10-speed bike - when you shift into 10th gear, you turn a large gear with the pedals, which drives a small gear attached to the rear wheel. For this model, one turn of the 24-tooth driver produce three turns of the 8-tooth follower. This ratio of 1:3 is called the gearing up ratio

10. Increasing Pulley Speed

Main Idea: If you use a large pulley wheel to drive a small pulley wheel, the small one will turn faster.

Additional Information: In this pulley model we have a large driver wheel and a small follower. We can move the small wheel pretty fast on our own, but these pulleys use a process called gearing up to move it even faster. Gearing up increases speed, but decreases force. A large driver wheel makes a small follower wheel turn faster. However, unlike gears, in this pulley model both wheels turn in the same direction.

This was built with Lego's. I reckon you could raid junior's box and build you some different pulleys to see what happens. Also . . . if the belt is crossed up. The wheels move in opposite directions.

more ambiguity ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket

12piece,

the ambiguity i was refering to is between that of the straight line delivery PATH and the straight line delivery LINE and its relation to the aiming point foward, or aiming point aft of the ball.

it would be easy to think that both straight lines (PATH and LINE)are foward or behind the ball depending on the aiming point. especially when he says in 7-23,"... a straight line wheel track motion (rather than its rotation) toward and on through the ball, or through the aiming point."

but mr. kelley defines the aiming point in the 6th edition as being on the delivery line. so it sounds like the straight line effort is on the inclined plane OUT (angle of approach) to the aiming point and not to an aiming point DOWN (angle of attack)in FRONT of or BEHIND the ball.

and he says in a very abstract passage in 6-e-2 in the 7th edition about the endless belt, "... because both of those lines represent the true delivery paths and move -physically- directly at the point on the ball through which the angle of approach passes even with the aiming point procedures."

this again sounds like the delivery paths and delivery lines intersect at the ball.regardless of the length of the straight line portion of the belt.

it might make more sense(?) if we read the passage in 7-23 about the line delivery path to mean, " a straight line... toward and on through the ball, or through the aiming point (the point of the release, on the straight line delivery path to the ball,influenced by the handspeed and clubshaft length to get pp#3 to its impact fix location )."