Rhight shoulder down
 

Thanks a lot Bigwill, AndyR, Bucket, drewitgolf.
Been working on your suggestions with my student.
Now the student says that he wants to stay on
the left side on the backswing, then drop the right
shoulder and hands, and then pull with the left arm
to get his pivot. I mention to him that a shift/turn
to start the downswing lowers the right shoulder.
He says that he blocks the shot to the right when
he does it that way. I think that he looks a results
rather than causes. He says that he stays on the left
side and does not have to make the shift. I loaned
him my alignments DVD and asked that he look at
yoda leaving the hands at the top while making a
shift. In prior posts, Lagster and bucket observed
that trigger delay can be greater if the right shoulder
stays higher longer, Ala Hogan, Garcia, Clampet etc.

So my student wants to start the downswing with the
shoulders and hands. I must admit that if he does not
do this he tends to come over the top. My way of
thinking is that you do not set the accumulators by
starting with a shoulder drop before a shift/pivot.
What a battle. What do you suggest?

What is his pivot doing when he drops the shoulder?

Closing Doors
 

Assuming other Alignments and ball position are OK, teach your student to Hinge properly to get rid of the blocks...Hands, Hands, Hands.

Pivot and Hinge
 

Bigwill, The pivot comes after the shoulder drop when the
pulling of the left arm starts. I guess that, as Homer
Kelley says, the left arm is actually substituting for the
pivot to introduce the circular motion required to produce
Centrifugal Force. The student does not want to start
the downswing with a pivot, to set #4. How forcefull should
the instruction be to insist on the pivot or should I just try
to help the guy with a less effective stroke?

drewitgolf, am rechecking Alignments, ball position and
hinge to get rid of blocks.

DK it would appear to me that your student conceptualizes the swing according to Leslie King's swing methodology

See - http://www.golftoday.co.uk/proshop/tuition/index.html

I think that an understanding of TGM's power accumulators allows one to understand the difference between the LK arm swing style and the body-pivot swing style. A swinger uses a particular sequence of PA release - 4:1:2:3. PA#4 is the master power accumulator and it is the angle between the left arm and chest wall between the shoulder sockets.



During the backswing one gets the left arm across the chest wall (loading of PA#4) and during the downswing this angle is released.

In the Leslie King swing methodology the left arm is actively swung away from the chest wall by active contraction of muscles around the left shoulder girdle (colored in red in the next photo).



By contrast, the pivot-driven swing has a kinetic sequence where the hips/shoulders/arms rotate in a particular sequence and decelerate in a sequence.



The arms rotate at the same speed as the hips/shoulders in the early/mid downswing and only accelerate more dramatically (release of PA#4) when the torso pivot decelerates. The arms are essentially catapulted passively off the chest wall, rather than being pulled actively off the chest wall by the left shoulder girdle muscles (as occurs in the LK swing style).

If your student understands the differences, then he may decide to use the standard pivot-driven swing method of releasing PA#4.

Jeff.

jeff
 

The hips,shoulders and arms don't moving at the same speed at the beginning of the down swing 6-M-1 say hips,shoulders arms,
hips accelerate first and moving the fastest in the initial start of the downswing, then the shoulders are moving faster, thens arms followed by the club head, then the hips decelerate first,then shoulders then arms then club head.
you compare a cheap $40,000 dollar 6 dof electronmagnetic sensor graph,
I thinks it funnys you trying to compare a t.pi. graph to a kinetic link which uses a vicon d of system well 0ver $150,00.
good to see you have throughly done your research before presenting pathetic kinnematic chains which is missing a world on information,

Trigger Difficulty
 

Due to the fact that HK lists the components in each section in the order of difficulty....if starting the downstorke with the lower body is correct why wouldn't the 10-20-E Wrist Throw Trigger be listed as 10-20-A or 10-20-B right after the Hands Throw Trigger. Seems logical to me...

DG

Order of Merit
 

In our January 1982 Master Class, Homer Kelley never mentioned a listing order (of the Variations) from "most to least difficult" . . . or vice versa. Nor is such a listing defined in his text, The Golfing Machine.

Homer did talk of listing the Variations from "simplest to most sophisticated" or from "least restrictive to zero". These progressive listings are so defined in Chapter 1-H.

Of the Release Triggers (Component #20), the final listed Variation (Left Wrist Throw / 10-20-E) is the most sophisticated.

:)

Order of Merit vs. Order of Difficulty
 

I got the order of difficulty concept from Chuck Evans. I would think the word difficulty could be associated with the terms "simplest to most sophisticated". I looked up the word "Sophisticated" in the Microsoft word Thesaurus and the first word that came up was "Complicated" and one of the words associated with complicated is "difficult". There you have it. Sophisticated is associated with the word "difficult".

Oh, BTW, a 3/4/5 day Masterclass is not the end all in education. I find those educational experiences as a starting point not a complete treatment on any subject.

DG

End Of the Line
 

. . . In which case, the Wrist Throw would still be listed at or near the end of the list of Component #20 Variations, and not near the beginning (as your earlier post suggested).

:)