If the logic is that the left wrist has to be bent and on the clubshaft plane for a sequenced release to occur in a manner that maintains an on plane clubshaft motion- then yes that is wrong. The on plane motion of the clubshaft is a resultant vector quantity- composed of many divergent and off-setting vectors of which the left wrist "uncocking" would be just one of those.

Sounds very scientific although unfortunately everything you have said here is still complete trash.

If the left wristcock takes place without a bent or arched condition, it moves on a plane that is aligned with the left arm. Since the left arm is not onplane and it is above plane therefore the left wristcock plane CANNOT EVER be aligned to the inclined plane.

There no other 'mystical' divergent vector alignments working here...just someone who cannot comprehend simple fact.

Now you have written something that I understand! It was what you were saying in your videos...and it was completely different to what I previously thought...that is what makes it interesting... now we have a thread...lets keep it going...IF this is really the case then it merits further discussion... if it is true then it means that many have misunderstood....

"we're learning now!!!" misquote by me...

Unneccessary Roughness
 

Mathew,

Your posts of late have taken on a decidedly negative and disrepectful tone, one that is inappropriate to these Forums and that we will not tolerate. I had hoped that Bagger's PM to you last week and my post #20 above (Order In the Court) would eliminate your bullying tactics and verbal abuse. Unfortunately, it seems to be 'business as usual'. Hence, this Open Letter of Censure.

Here is the opening statement from our Forum Information and Rules:

Golf is known as a gentleman’s game, and the intent of this board is to carry forward etiquette in a manner befitting that tradition.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s....php?p=4#post4

Your demeaning personal attacks are disrespectful and counterproductive. Instead of encouraging our friends, you belittle their efforts to study and understand. Should you persist in this behavior, you leave me no alternative but to suspend your posting privileges.

You have made significant contributions to these Forums and are capable of many more. But, unless you begin immediately to conduct yourself in a more civil way, you will no longer be permitted to interact with us. We are not your personal punching bags: You are hurting this site; you are hurting those who in good faith attempt to interact with you; and, most of all, you are hurting yourself.

Bottom line: Behave or be gone.

We want you here, but the choice is yours.

Mathew wrote-: "If the left wristcock takes place without a bent or arched condition, it moves on a plane that is aligned with the left arm. Since the left arm is not onplane and it is above plane therefore the left wristcock plane CANNOT EVER be aligned to the inclined plane."

I cannot understand why Mathew believes this fact. He uses the phrase "cannot ever", which I think is incorrect. It is true that the left arm is above plane, but that doesn't mean that the left wrist cock cannot be on plane. In fact, I think that the left wrist has to be on plane if the butt end of the club is always pointing at the ball-target line (when the lower end of the club is tracing the planar baseline). Let's presume that the butt end of the club and left hand moves from the elbow plane (at address) to the turned shoulder plane (at the end-backswing), then there is a time period during the backswing when the butt end of the club is pointing at the ball-target line (even while it is shifting planes from the elbow plane to the turned shoulder plane) and when it is pointing at the ball-target line (or its extension) then it is "on plane" (presuming that the baseline of the plane is the ball-target line). When the butt end of the club is 'on plane", then surely the left wrist cock must be "on plane" because the left wrist cock occurs on the same plane as the back of the left wrist/hand.

For example, here is a photo of Tiger Woods and Adam Scott in mid-backswing.



Note that the butt end of their club is pointing at the ball-target line. Surely, at this moment in time, their left wrist cock is also "on plane".

Jeff.

Nope better read what Mathew has written again

There are 3 factors in this discussion:-

1. Left wrist condition
a) Mechanically flat left wrist / geometrically flat left wrist
b) Bent left wrist

2. Sweetspot Plane line alignment
a) square to target (10-5-A)
b) out to right field (10-5-E)

3. Clubface alignment with respect to face of plane
a) Fully turned to face of plane (ie. no "squaring" or roll of clubface prior to uncocking)
b) clubface rolls off face of plane prior to uncocking

All of these criteria have been specified since my first post.

It strikes me that 1(a) + 2(a) + 3(a) = impossible

1(a) and 2(a) require the clubface to roll off the face of the plane 3(b)

2(a) and 3(a) require a bent left wrist 1(b)

1(a) and 3(a) require a plane line out to right field 2(b)

So in Jeffs Photos I would say that they are off the square plane line (maybe heading back towards it at this point of backswing) ...but photos and parallax prove nothing...just lead to debate... the answers to this question lies in principles...I think...I am slightly confused but sure that the answers are nearby!

I agree with the post above. I was saying that although the left wrist cock with a flat left wrist is not cocking/uncocking in the plane of the inclined clubshaft plane - that doesn't mean that it creates an off plane motion of the clubshaft- which is what I thought Bulldog's post and Matthew's video were saying.

The left wrist cock and uncocking motion are just one of many "off clubshaft plane" motions that combine for the resultant on-plane motion of the clubshaft. Therefore, I don't think I said or certainly I never meant to say that the left wrist cock and uncocking motion with a flat left wrist was aligned with the inclined plane. That in fact was the point of my orginal post-that the flat left wrist with its cocking and uncocking motion is indeed NOT on the plane of the clubshaft- but contrary to what I thought bulldog and Matthew were saying "that therefore that would create an "off plane" clubshaft motion- I was saying that the left wrist can cock and uncock during a sequenced release on a plane that is not the clubshaft plane ("aligned with the left arm") and that will not create an off plane clubshaft motion (assuming clubhead lag etc.).
A simple non golf example is that you can throw a ball off a train in a direction perpendicular to the rail road track but since the train is moving down the track at a certain speed the resultant flight of the ball isn't perpendicular to the train track.

A separate topic and area of discussion on a similar issue- is the concept of the left wrist "moves on a plane that is aligned with the left arm". Since the wrist via the forearm and upper arm can rotate approximately 270 degrees- the plane of the left wrist cocking and uncocking has the ability to rotate 270 degrees (anatomcially speaking) so you have to ask yourself "What does aligned with the left arm mean or how does that help us define something important if the left wrist motion "always aligned with the left arm" whenever it is flat.

Consider this statement - "I was saying that although the left wrist cock with a flat left wrist is not cocking/uncocking in the plane of the inclined clubshaft plane."

What is the plane of the inclined plane of the clubshaft? Is this plane linear (like a plate of glass) or curved?

If the left wrist cocks up during the backswing along a curved path (which I will label a curved left wrist cock plane) that is dicated by the rate of rotation of the straight left arm during the backswing, wouldn't the clubshaft also be on that curved plane if the left wrist remains flat during the entire left wrist upcocking phenomenon?

Jeff.

Jeff,
I don't know about a curved plane. I was just looking at the simple example of a plate of glass swing plane and the sequenced release of the left wrist uncocking on the downswing- while it would uncock in line with the left wrist alignment which let's assume isn't on the clubshaft plane- that fact doesn't mean that the clubshaft would be thrown off the intended clubshaft plane.

Your additional comments may have validity and be great to look into but they are outside of the principle that I was describing. Post on though if you can further describe your thought process on this line- I'm not saying they are not valid - I am just saying that they aren't needed in regards to my post i.e. regardless of a flat plane or curved plane- the left wrist could be uncocking in one plane while the clubshaft is moving in another plane- they don't both have to mirror one another- unless there are no offsetting vectors/ joint motions.

I would only have one basic question or comment regarding your post at this time. When you use the term upcocking- that's a term that breaks out to mean - "up"= backswing? and cocking=cocking? or is there something more to the term "upcocking"?