ready,fire,aim
 

I am getting close but still confused--for a hitter is the first move down moving the right shoulder down its plane which will shift the hips or is it hip action moving the right shoulder ??

Hip- take out the slack of the upper body. All strokes start bottom up with Hip motion the key to the pivot- for me

jermax....
Per 5-0, just concentrate on getting the hands down and out on the inclined plane - everything else will follow. This in essence is the Hand Controlled Pivot.

Down, Out and Forward
 

Comdpa,

When everyone discusses down, out and forward. Down from where, out from what and forward of what. I have assumed (and we know what that breaks into) that down was from the top, out was from the center of the body, and forward was similar to through the ball.

Can you or someone else help?

The Clubhead Orbit
 

The 'Down, Out and Forward' refers to the On Plane orbit of the Sweetspot from The Top of the Stroke through the Low Point.

The Ball rests on the Ground opposite the player. The Sweetspot is up in the air -- Back, Up and In -- On Plane. From The Top, the Sweetspot must move Down to get to the Ball; it must move Out to get to the Ball; and it must move Forward to get to the Ball. Hence...Down, Out and Forward.

jermax and kmmcnabb,

Look at post #39...

Is this wrong?
 

Is this wrong? I see Yoda with a very defined pivot before the right shoulder becomes a backboard to shove off of.

Load With the Pivot
 

In Pivot Strokes, the Pivot Loads the Lag. Overcoming the initial Clubhead Inertia in the Start Down is a job for the big muscles of the Body.

Comdpa
Can't help thinking you are correct especially with the added weight of 6-G-0 "All motion is focused on driving the Hands—NOT THE CLUB—toward the BALL."

The Hands control the Pivot
 

Mike,

Per 6-M-1, the downstroke sequence is always knees, hips, shoulders, right elbow, left wrist uncocking and / or left hand rotation.

But it is the INTENT of bringing the hands down and out on-plane that will ironically bring about this sequence.

Food for thought - you will hardly see a good tennis player getting out of sync in their strokes. Is it any wonder that they focus only on what their hands are doing?

Its hard for most people to accept this line of reasoning until they play a round of tennis, observe their pivot reacting to the hands and then apply this procedure to their golf stroke.

Amateurs who try to trigger the downstroke in the sequence afore mentioned always manage to get it to fire the other way around.

Which brings to mind Mr. Kelley's timeless words, the hands are not educated until they control the pivot - 9-1

Hi strav,

Something for you to think about along these lines...

6-G-0 also mentions that educated hands can compensate for off line hip and shoulder motion but only up to a point.

How do you reconcile this with a "Hand Controlled Pivot" and what we just mentioned about bringing the hands down and out on plane and 5-0?

This will further your understanding of TGM I believe.

I think many people need to have the pivot trained to some point before they learn hand controlled pivot. The body might not necesarily react to the hands. For example, a student could move the hands toward the ball by moving the arms independent of the body, thus resulting in very little pivot. Once the pivot is learned, then I think it is easier to learn a hand controlled pivot.

I taught tennis through my college days and for a couple of years after graduating. Some of the students with an athletic background could learn "hand controlled" strokes immediately, but many people had to learn the rotation involved with ground strokes first before having a "hand controlled" stroke. If they didn't they would just move the arms from the shoulder and have an arm-only stroke.

Since the arms can be moved from the shoulder sockets without the trunk rotating, it doesn't mean the body will necessarily respond to the hands when first learning the golf swing.

I agree a hand-controlled golf swing is the way to go, but I don't agree that the body will automatically respond correctly to the hand's movement. I think it has to be trained to do this.

Comdpa
The answer to your question, I believe, is encapsulated in the Three Zones(9-0) but I will leave it to others more knowledgeable than I for a detailed response which I’m sure as you say will further my understanding of TGM. Thanks for the reply and posing the question.

The trunk is not rotating (or being felt doing nothing) does not necessarily mean it's not doing anything. It appears (to the observor) the body is motionless and doing nothing when pushing against a wall (static muscle contraction).

See for yourself by moving the (lagged) arms "without the trunk rotating" while standing on the ground vs. a rotary chair.

bts,

What EdStraker is referring to here is the arms moving across the chest (from their point of origin, the shoulders) with no rotary motion of the trunk.

Remember, the shoulders are a dual agent, being part of both the Power Package and the Pivot. Therefore, arm induced shoulder motion does not necessarily mean the Pivot is involved. 7-13

Hi strav,

EdStraker makes a great point.

Yes, the answer is encapsulated in the 3 Zones.

Per 1-L, mastery of the pivot is essential for good golf.
Unless developed in sequence of the 3 zones, one ends up with a weak and compensated game per 9-0.

Instructors who teach only hands or pivot components to the exclusion of the other is only teaching half the golf stroke.

It is vitally essential that the hands and the pivot be trained individually and then control of the entire motion be handed over to the hands.

It is very possible for a player to have offline pivot motion (Bobbing and Swaying per 3-F-7-C/D) and still have the hands making the correct motion.

It is also very possible for the pivot to be making the correct motion and then have the hands spoil it all by Steering (3-F-7-A).

Of course, it is not as simplistic as I explain it. Mr. Kelley certainly solves this problem with his 3 zones.

I just described it in this manner to an AI recently...

The golf stroke is like driving a car. The hands and feet are controlling the car, but it is the engine that is powering the car.

Power flows through the hands and the feet (accelerator control) but power is not of the hands and feet.

In this analogy, the hands and feet relate to the Hands controlling the golf stroke and the engine of the car relates to the Pivot in the golf stroke.

With a student, I will go through Basic, Acquired and then Total Motion.

Within each stage, I deal with the 3 Zones.

For 12-5-1 and 12-5-2, there should be a zeroed out motion, so I teach students what a zeroed motion is, what the Pivot components should be doing (i.e. keep still) for these 2 motions.

For 12-5-3, there will be a Standard Pivot, which means a free turn in both directions. Again, they will be taught what the 6 pivot components ought to be doing etc.

Once a student has gained ample mastery of the pivot, we will move on very rapidly to the other two stages and thereafter pass control of the swing to the hands.

With a Hand Controlled Pivot procedure now, the student now has the benefit of Zone 1 Training to know what the Pivot has to do. When any off line Pivot Motion occurs for any reason, the student has a point of reference that he can now use for correction.

Remember Zone 1 is for balance and not for power, but there can be no power without balance...and thus, it is imperative to keep things in their place...and it is here I also leave you with more food for thought - namely, Pivot or Hands for power?

I remember Lynn telling it this way:

Z1 ... the pivot- turning of the right shoulder
Z2 ... the lifting of the arms during Z1
Z3 ... The delivery of the hands- the Flying Wedges and pp3
down through the ball.

Hogan on power
 

Ben thought both were involved - and then some.

Yes strav,

Both are involved when it comes to hitting the ball a mile.

Not to give the impression that I am more knowledgeable than Mr. Hogan, I would disregard some of the things that he says in the caption.

Taking Mr. Hogan's advice to use the right foot to give that "decided push" for more power will trouble amateurs more than help them.

Mr. Kelley in studying Mr. Hogan's book, "Power Golf" disregarded all the "words" and paid attention only to the pictures which were "big and clear"

Big Thanks From Kev
 

Comdpa and Yoda,

Big thanks on down, out, and forward. Much much clearer now. I was out of my office for a week or so and just got back to read it. Thanks for the help. By the by, ordered the new edition (can't resist) and hope to have it by mid April for a look.