pics of wrist impact position--anti roll?
 

Two pictures of wrists at impact
The picture on the left was the "recommended wrist position," while the picture on the right was labelled the "antiroll wrist position"

I think I often have an impact position similar to the picture on the right side.

Quote from the author (TGM-educated)
"An antiroll wrist position at impact (where the lead wrist is flat but rolled to the right for a right-handed player) will counterbalance a closed face. One can play using this variation, but like the "rolled" position of a weak grip, requires perfect timing and is consequently subject to under or over correction on the downswing."

What do you think of the last sentence (in bold)? I tend to have a closed clubface (at the top of the backswing) and the impact position seen in the picture on the right. Do you think it's a bad impact position for the wrists?

Thanks

The pic on the right is the Trevino 10-2-D look. Due to the Turned Left Hand Grip, the release motion must be made with the left hand still in the turned condition and the Finish Swivel MUST happen later. Also, Horizontal Hinging with this grip type is a NO NO.

All that being said . . . There are some particularly those on the Darkside that actually recommend a Turned Left Hand BECAUSE it eliminates the need for any Swiveling PRIOR TO the Imapct Interval. Thus ELIMINATING what could be percieved as an "unnecessary variable." So you just have the Left Hand Turned to the Plane and it just rides the Plane Uncocks ONLY, which is "throwing the Clubface at the ball."

So an strong arguement could be made to support the bold statement.

Examples would be Lee Buck, Zinger and Morgan Pressel.

Daly and Couples too.

12 piece,

Did you mean to say that a strong argument could be made against the bold statement?

RT

The main trade off is power. Lee, Zinger and Pressel could have all hit it farther using a weaker grip and full roll (transfer power). This requires better Rhythm however.

But they never would have been as accurate as they are.

It will be interesting to see if Pressel stays with the grip she has now, or if playing with longer drivers will push her to try to gain distance.

A vast majority of higher handicapers would do better with 10-2-D (and the fade it basically requires) because of the significant advantage in ease of compression as well as the lesser requirement of Rhythm. The problem arises when 10-2-D players try to play a draw ;)

No sir. I meant FOR because the need for Swivel is eliminated as well as Horizontal Hinging. With the Left Hand "pre-turned" to the Plane then there is no need for all the required Roll of 10-2-B.

If a 10-2-D reduces some power because you do not receive the full power of accumulator #3, then how come couples and daly hit the ball so far?

Agreed. I would say there are more long players with a Turned Left Hand than not.

12 piece,

I'm a little confused. Your first post said:

I read this to mean that a 10-2-D grip with its attendant lack of roll can be argued to be the preferred variation. However, the bold portion of the original post indicated that the "anti-roll" grip requires better timing than (I presume) Standard Wrist Action and therefore would not be preferred. I have reproduced the bold portion of the original post below.


Am I missing something?

RT

Sorry I re-read the statement in bold. I'm not sure I know what the heck it is saying. But all I'm saying is that it could be argued that 10-2-D could be a better grip for some than 10-2-B due to reducing the variable of Swiveling. I think Mac O'Grady actually was a proponent of this.

Sorry if I have confused the issue at hand. But again my position is that 10-2-D with the Turned Left Hand ain't necessarily a bad grip choice.

Mac O'Grady suffered from over acceleration issues in the downstroke which leads to loss of club head lag which means the shaft and club head is doing funny stiff closing coming into impact. The stronger left hand grip will help negate the effects of this but really we should all be striving to maintain and sustain club head lag rather than building in modifications to deal will the loss of it in the downstroke . Keep the swing on plane in the downstroke, have a flat wrist at impact and sustain club head lag past the ball until both arms are straight and there is no left shot. IMO that is the real anti left way of doing things .

12 piece,

Thanks. That's what I thought you were trying to say.

RT

There are a couple reasons for this. Generally speaking, a turned left hand equates to a slightly more forward leaning shaft at impact, which delofts the club and adds distance.

Also, there are power advantages in allowing the cupped left wrist at the top, which is in contrast to what Trevino and Pressel do, then keep the wrist flat (or in Trevino's case, slightly arched) at the top - this is the root of why their power is not maximized using the 10-2-D grip (and why their accuracy is).

Couples and Daly use CF to square up the club. They both have excellent Rhythm, which combined with the cupped left wrist at the top (and the ability to retain their angles deep into the downswing because of the cup) contribute to their distances.

So if you use 10-2-D as an angled hinge swinger, you can still have power, given good Rhythm, but 10-2-D as a hitter is generally less powerful (because as a hitter, they do not allow the cup at the top). Depending on the player, the more 'massive' impact of a 10-2-D hitting motion can make up for 'most' of the distance differences, but never all of it IMO.

Good post. I think that handicap players could possibly benefit from 10-2-D if the required release motion (hammering) is understood. It eliminates some of the moving parts and helps negate throwaway. Most amateurs suffer loss of distance from throwaway and leakage. So 10-2-D could be a "stepping stone" grip.

What constitutes a 10-2-D grip?
 

My copy of the book hasn't yet arrived but i'm curious whether my grip is similar to what has been described.

I grip in my left hand in the "natural" position in which it hangs - turned inwards and i can see 3 knuckles. The left wrist has a slight bend given it is turned so much. I thought i already had a strong grip but my coach made it stronger again.

Interestingly played in a couple of pro-ams recently and the pros have always commented on my grip, usually "no one plays with a grip that strong these days you need to fix that and make it more neutral"

Here is how Mr. Kelley defined 10-2-D . . .

10-2-D STRONG DOUBLE ACTION T/V/A Now the Right Wrist is Vertical and the Left Wrist is Turned to the top of the Clubshaft so that the Left Wristcocking motion will be on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend. The #3 Pressure Point and the left thumb are also on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend. Double Action – same as 10-2-C.

Very compatible with the Cut Shot procedures. Any Left Wrist Bend at Impact Fix should be maintained throughout the Stroke.

This Grip Type features maximum Wristcocking action and strong support for both Acceleration and Impact loads. The palm of the Right Hand moves toward Impact exactly like a paddle-wheel rotating On-Plane – no separate Rolling Motion until after Impact. See 10-10-C.

Don't listen to those people you CAN play golf with that grip. You can win majors with that grip. You can be considered the best ballstriker of all time with that grip.

The key is knowing HOW YOU MUST RELEASE. So go get your hammer . . .

Very interesting thread.I have been meaning to post on this subject after making some grip changes.I thought,until I read this thread that Ihad changed to 10-2-D.But now i don't think so as i still feel like i am horizontal hingeing,though i have found that my drives now have a slight fade -everything else is straight/draw.Is there a "twiglight zone "between 10-2-B & 10-2-D?. just when i thought i was making progress:(

Here's some pics of my grip
 

Here's some pics of my grip would be interested to hear your thoughts. I use the way my left hand naturally hangs as a guide. Ends up being a grip that most pros say is way too strong... my standard shot shape is a slight draw with the irons tending to a hook with the woods. The hardest shot for me to hit is left to right (fade or slice)

Suffering??? The only thing suffering here .....is the Ball!!!



Where is the loss of clubhead lag here?...Over-Acceleration?

Perhaps we all suffer from the "menace of over acceleration" from time to time...but Mac is definately not suffering here!!!

I would consider that a grip you can most certainly play excellent golf with. Assuming you have a basically flat left wrist at the top, your flying wedges and plane are likely quite good. With good exensor action, you no doubt feel very 'set' at the top, and indeed, throughout your entire motion.

Nice work. Post some video or a sequence if you are able ;)

A note regarding your fade difficulties.

Keep your right hand and left thumb where they are, and get the back of the left hand closer to matching the clubface. The key is to keep that thumb 'aft'. You might also check your grip size. The grip you have generally goes nicely with a slightly larger grip (your left hand fingers should just barely touch your thumbpad).

This looks good to me man. Just one thing. Relax the right arm a bit. I would bet that your Right Forearm is not in the same plane as the shaft. Relax the arm and bend the elbow a little.

Now here's your home work with your camera. This will be illustrative for a lot of people. Get your hammer. Put YOUR NORMAL LEFT HAND GRIP ON THE HAMMER as we see here WITH THE HEAD OF THE HAMMER FACING LEFT. HAMMER A WALL TO YOUR LEFT. With the grip you have YOU CANNOT WILL NOT NO WAY IN HELL HIT THE WALL SQUARE IF YOU ROLL YOUR LEFT HAND. Right?

Now start the process over . . . BUT THIS TIME WITH A LEFT HAND THAT IS "WEAKER" or VERTICAL. Hammer the wall to your left. Guess what? If you DON'T ROLL (Swivel), YOU CANNOT WILL NOT NO WAY IN HELL HIT THE WALL SQUARE.

Seeing and feeling is believing dude. This is what you HAVE TO DO WITH THE GOLF CLUB. Your release motion MUST COMPLY WITH YOUR GRIP TYPE. See the pics of Lee Buck? Note how his left hand REMAINS TURNED TO THE PLANE? Why? If he ROLLED like every pop instructor says, he'd be in the left woods where the elephants go to die.

What is amazing about this all is Mr. K GOT IT RIGHT!!! The man was a GENIUS!!!!

Fog is clearing
 

Actually my right elbow is tucked closer to my body with the right forearm on plane - a bit hard to see from that pic, will post another one down the line (this is the first thing along with my grip my coach changed).

Homework sounds interesting !!

This is all starting to make sense... on my good shots i don't feel the release at all (or feel that i've had to conciously do anything to square the face)

Hammer in hand. I'm all ears and very curious.
is this only for hitters btw?

OK Teach, Here's my homework
 

OK here's the results of my homework, hope i got this right

Pic 1 is my normal grip, no wrist turn = hammer square
Pic 2 is my normal grip, left wrist turned = hammer points way left
Pic 3 is "weak" grip, wrist turned = hammer square





What this is telling me is that if I have my current grip + left wrist rotation then everythings going left into the bushes?

More or less. :)

What's that saying? Left of Ralph Nader.

Woo!!!!! This is fantastic!!!! As you can see pictures don't tell no lies!!!! If your LEFT HAND IS TURNED ON THE GRIP you DO NOT WANT TO ROLL!!!

With your Turned grip to hit the wall square you COCK AND UNCOCK ONLY. But with the vertical grip YOU HAVE TO ROLL TO HIT THE WALL SQUARE.

Thanks for taking these pics man! The Golfing Machine should come with a video. Very nice!

YES!!! YES!!!! YES!!!!

This is the FEEL of ANGLED HINGING!!! Which is a MUST with your grip my friend from down-under. Check this quote out . . .

,“Basic Hinging” has the following characteristics of appearance and feel. Between the “Full Roll” of Horizontal Hinging and the “No Roll” of Vertical Hinging, Angled Hinging takes on a “Half Roll” motion. While Horizontal Hinging retains the “Feel” of a “Roll”, Angled Hinging takes on a “No Roll” Feel and Vertical Hinging is executed as a “Reverse Roll”.

BTW in your description of pic 3.....nothing is Turned there (going by TGM definitions).

Correct. That is Bergsey gripping the hammer with a 10-2-B grip with Vertical left hand requiring swivel to strike the wall square.

Only if you are executing hinge action as a swivel.

Hinge action is in effect from impact to separation. With the stronger lead hand grip, your 'finish swivel' happens AFTER the ball is gone. That said, you can still execute a horizontal hinge (closing only), with the stronger grip, you just wouldn't want to execute a 'release swivel' - then you'd be headed left.

Horizontal hinge, to me, feels like a very 'level' left hand frisbee toss. Important not to confuse that feel with the 'roll' feel of the release and finish swivels, which is easy to do if you are using a weaker grip, it tends to feel like one long, SMOOTH roll.

This is a confusing point in TGM definitions of hinge and swivel, which Yoda has helped clarify for me.

Can I have angled hinging and still hit a draw? as i mentioned earlier on i have pretty much never faded the ball, straight or slight draw is my "good" shot. The odd fade i have hit (unintentionally) has been with the very short irons e.g. PW

I thought that angled hinging = fade, although perhaps my angled hinge might be closer to a horizontal one?

Not sure whether it makes much difference but others have mentioned my clubface looking very "shut" at the top, not sure if this is a result of the grip or some manipulation along the way.... i'll try and borrow a camera at some point and put a sequence up...

B . . . You can hit a draw or a cut with ANY Hinge Action . . .

2-J-1 IMPACT ALIGNMENTS . . .Except with a Cut Shot procedure, the clubface is properly soled behind the ball when the leadingedge is slightly "open." The longer the shot the more Open the Clubface.

The Clubface must be exactly square to the Line of Flight ONLY at the point of Separation. So if the EXECUTION of the Stroke is geometrically correct, a square face at pre-impact can result in a Line of Flight to the left, or "inside" of the intended Line - a Pulled Shot. Or, if this error of alignment is great enough, it will result in a Hooked Shot.

and

7-2 GRIP TYPES . . . For the “True” Hitter, Moving the Ball back (Hook alignment) or forward (Slice alignment) – always with the Clubface aligned to the Target Line per 2-J-1 – gives straightaway initial direction (2-B). Opening the Clubface (Slice Grip) or Closing the Clubface (Hook Grip) at your normal Impact Fix, produces Pushed Slices and Pulled Hooks and so require a compensating Target Line adjustment to make it square to the changed Clubface alignment.

For the “True” Swinger, “Opening” the Plane Line (10-5-D) until it is square to the Clubface alignment at the new “Aft” location, will produce a “Fade.” With the Ball moved Forward, “Closing” the Plane Line (10-5-E) square to the Clubface alignment at the new location, will produce a “Draw.” The Curve of the their paths, after the straightaway initial direction, will be proportional to the divergence of the Plane and Target Lines. Herein, “Path” terms (Ball Path etc.) refer to total Ball behavior, whether or not it remains straightaway. “Line” terms (“Target Line” etc.) refer to the straightaway direction of Aim

More grip fun
 

Went and had another lesson earlier in the week and got my grip checked. My coach suggested weakening a bit but leaving the thumb on the right hand side of the shaft.

From this...


To this.....


Everything since then is either a push slice or almost shank !

Do i need to conciously try and close the face now as opposed to my previous "strong grip"?

That bottom one looks too weak. i.e. your wrist looks "left of" Vertical (too Rolled).

Experiment with something in the middle of the two.

...

And no....you don't try to consciously do anything. It should be automatic.

Swing the same as you did with your old grip.

Clubface Fix
 

I have a square or closed clubface all the way from the top, so at separation I hold my left wrist (too much) and not really "swivel", I feel that if I roll my left wrist it's going to close the clubface during Impact/separation... hello Pull/Hook!

Here is my Swing Video -
http://files.filefront.com/For_Manze.../fileinfo.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k1TEOlKBsg

Is it a mechanical thing or just mentally? Why am I not able to get this Horizonal Hinge especially with my driver,
where I need to fully uncock and roll the Left Wrist the most!

Look at my LEFT WRIST at Impact\separation and after, it almost reverse roll! ala Zack Johnson (almost vertical hinged)




I'm tired from this Angled hinge with the driver, it feels unnatural holding the left wrist.

It's almost feel like a flip...

Swivel it!

You are executing your hinge action to the vertical wall instead of the horizontal floor. The wrist needs to be vertical, or perpendicular to the corresponding plane. A Horizontal Hinge (complete with roll and swivel ) is vertical- 90 degrees- to the ground. Your vertical hinge is vertical or perpendicular- 90 degrees to a vertical wall.

Trace a straight plane line and be ready to roll along it through impact. Swivel finished. Nice swing. Just practice a Horizontal Hinge.

Thank you for the reply,
I read the chapter on hinges on the yellow book but still I'm a little confused about what you said,
A Horizontal Hinge (complete with roll and swivel ) is vertical- 90 degrees- to the ground.
I'm trying to find the reason I'm not rolling my Left Wrist( horizontal hinge ) I leave my clubface almost open with my angled hinge and this is the Driver so no power there.
Thanks again

Armchair Quarterback
 

If you want to experiment, heres a few suggestions from the armchair.

It looks like you've got a pretty strong grip. Makes it a little more challenging to swivel and roll. Also why your clubface is facing the sky at the end of your swing with a flat left wrist.
Try taking your grip at impact fix before startup. See if it weakens a bit.
Then hit little 175 yard drives with a full roll follow-through and get use to the rhythm of horizontal hinging.

However - quick fixes over the internet don't hold a candle to a live, 3 dimensional lesson with one of our instructors. On the internet you may get a fix, but not the cure.

Ok, I understand thanks to Yoda, A Lesson with Yoda - Collin Neeman Chapter 4 - LBG Lesson - Total Motion
Made it clear what you mean A Horizontal Hinge (complete with roll and swivel ) is vertical- 90 degrees- to the ground.
Well almost because I'll have to practice.
I still have a feeling it's a clubface problem which is too "closed" at the top all the way so if I'll fix the clubface like Bagger Lance said ( thanks) with a weaker left grip, I'll have to roll my left wrist - Horizontal hinge.

I'm not suggesting you are wrong EdZ, but how would you explain the accuracy of Ben Hogan and Moe Norman with these principles?