Role of #2 PP for hitter
 

Power supply for hitting is 1,2 and 3. We have been emphasising pressure point #1 as major and pp #3 as sensing. Do anything need to be done, feel for pp#2?

Applying right arm thurst: pushing down to straighten the right arm instead of naturally rolling after impact (like snapping) feels unnatural. Is this suppose to be a natual move?

I only Hit for mid-irons down through wedge. I feel only the heel of the Right Hand driving the Left Thumb down through the ball. I have no awareness of the last three fingers of the Left Hand(#2 PP). Maybe some "real" Hitters have different thoughts.

I roll the right forearm as I thrust through Impact, which gives Horizontal Hinging. I do this to avoid the fade which results from Angled Hinging.

I'm with MJ....i'm a full roll hitter with all my clubs

Joe,

If you are intentionally rolling your forearm through impact you are moving away from the machine concept of the three dimensional impact; down, out, and through.....down and out....manipulating the roll is deadly. See 1-L 13 through 15. Any rolling action should come automatically from the pivot....

DG

Well, a horizontal hinge would have to be a manipulation for the hitter.

In the book, all pp related to its power accumulator. Therefore, even power 1, 2 and 3 are used for hitter, only PP1 is used directly for thursting, #3 for sensing and no major use on #2. That means, not necessary all pp will be used even the related power accumulator is used? Just try to clear the fog.

Dave,

As Matt said, how else do you Hit with a Horizontal Hinge? There's no CF to do it, and turning through the ball doesn't change Angled Hinging to Horizontal Hinging. I suppose you could roll the Left Wrist intentionally as in a Hand Manipulated Swing, but why, when it's so easy and natural to do it with the Right Forearm?

tgmer,

That's right, you're not dragging the Left Wrist through Impact, but you are using Left Wrist cock.

Joe,

Thanks, sometimes get into detail and do the wrong things.

You're not the only one - I've done that many times since 1983 when I bought the yellow book.

Matt and Joe,

You have it backwards....a hitter using horizontal hinging would change his left wrist action to standard which is a natural move....the left wrist wants to turn naturally in the backswing...the manipulated move is resisting that natural turning action per 7-19-1 for single wrist action for the true hitter. Even with a punch basic stroke, horizontal hinging and standard wrist action the motion should be down and out per 1-L #13 and 14 with the right forearm for release....the wrists and arms should roll naturally with the rotation of the pivot.

I think you'll find a comment by Homer in the book that goes something like this.....don't make the game more complicated then it already is....


DG

Dave,

You wrote - "the left wrist wants to turn naturally in the backswing...". I do end up with the clubface in the correct position at the top without doing a Swinger's Turn of the LW at the beginning of the Swing. No manipulation on the BS. A manipulation on the DS IS required to effect Horiz Hinging, and the forearm rotation added to the thrust is DOWN AND OUT on plane. You seem to think it's not. It's a very simple and effective move - to the thrusting heel of the Right Hand, add a counterclockwise "unscrewing" motion.

thanks again mj...
 

for validating something i've been thinking/doing...i have been visualizing my swing by moving the center of my hands (where they meet on the grip) to the top along a path pretty much described by the "surgical tubing" drill and screwing that center point one way on the BS and the opposite way on the DS while thrusting/punching my right hand heel to my left big toe...works great as long as i push off my right leg to my left (kinda like throwing a ball, which i do much better at this point than hit a golf ball) and not plant my right leg and reverse pivot (my favorite fault:-)

-hcw

hcw,

The difference for me is that I don't do the "screwing" on the BS, only the "unscrewing" on the DS. I end up at the top with the clubface in the turned shoulder plane without the initial LW Turn of Standard Wrist Action. In fact, I don't use a Turned LW in my Swinging Procedures either, because the shaft moving from the Elbow Plane to the Turned Shoulder Plane makes it unclear to me how much to turn it and it's easy to end up turning it too much with the clubface facing too much upward.

Joe,

No comment....have at it....keep manipulating the downstroke as you say...

DG

Will do - just as Hogan did with his Hand Manipulated Swing.

I need defogging.....
 

I've misunderstood somewhere Joe. If one doesn't "turn" the left wrist on the b/s wouldn't your "unscrewing" motion on the d/s cause you to pull the ball due to a closed clubface? Also, would your motion be considered a compensation per TGM? Thanks for any defogging mate.

John

Re: I need defogging.....
 

The 'unscrewing' motion is a 'supporting roll' (pun intended)

The design of the club is such that left to its own motion, the clubface will 'line up' with the plane of motion/force - open.

Rotation is needed to get it, or keep it, square to the arc - to keep the sweetspot on plane.

If you used the 'twist' on the backswing, but then didn't provide 'support' to keep it there, you'd hit it way right every time. If you 'turn' on the backswing, you simply have farther to 'roll' on the downswing to get back to 'square to the arc'.

Re: I need defogging.....
 

As EdZ says the clubface(actually leading edge) ends up in plane at the top from the orbiting of the arms. I'd have to manipulate to keep the face pendicular to the arc. I'm very flexible and the sweetspot gets into the plane without any intentional LW turn to start the BS. Yes, "unscrewing" is a compensation to replace Angled Hinging with Horizontal. The "unscrewing" happens late enough that the face is still open at Impact.

Re: I need defogging.....
 

Please understand that I don't post here just to be confrontational or to delight in preying on others ideas. My only goals here are to provide any help that I can to get the "word" out and keep it as clean as Homer would want it. But, I'm very concerned about Mizunojoe or anyone else that's attempting to use horizontal hinging with hitting. The results can be a DISASTER. I would like to see this manipulated action in person, even better, under the gun. My hypothesis about the motion (without seeing it) is that there is some centripetal (inward turning) force that would require a horizontal hinge action to get the ball to go straight. The rythms are VERY different. The other hypothesis would be that the overtaking found in angled hinging is being mistaken for horizontal.

First, about the uncocking, read the last paragraph in 7-3 (The magic of the right forearm). I'm going to try to give you a demonstration in text; so, be patient.

I want you to go to 4-B-1 in the book and mimic the picture, with one exception. I want you to point your thumbs straight out and away from you when doing this. Now, bend ONLY your right elbow. This should make the right thumb point skyward. Finally, without bending the left elbow, make the left wrist cock so that the thumbs match the direction they're pointing. This is a demonstration of the text found at the bottom of the page in 7-3 (the bending and straightening of the right elbow cocking and uncocking the left wrist). Therefore, the #1 accumulator uncocks the left wrist. I, personally, have no awareness of the #2 pressure point being active other than its orginal pressure established in the grip.

Second, the pushing force of hitting creates angled hinging. Anything else would be a manipulation.

I would put a hitting motion with horizontal hinging in the "don't try this at home" category, as it may cause personal injury to you or someone around you. :)

The Cocked Right Elbow And The Bent Right Wrist
 

The idea that the Cocking Right Elbow Cocks and Uncocks the Hitter's Left Wrist is tough for many to grasp. The same is true of the fact that the Right Wrist only Bends (Horizontal Grip Motion 4-0/4-A) and does not Cock or Uncock (Vertical Wrist Motion 4-0/4-B). Luke's exercise is a 'must' for those players wishing to understand these radically unconventional -- but dynamically correct -- concepts.

Do it first as Luke suggested -- Hands apart per Photo 4-B-1 -- and then Hands together, with the Left Hand Thumb being gripped with the last two fingers of the Right Hand.

Ahhhhh
 

Thanks all, there was just something in there i could not get my head around. Nice defogging exercise too.

John

YodasLuke wrote, "But, I'm very concerned about Mizunojoe or anyone else that's attempting to use horizontal hinging with hitting. The results can be a DISASTER."

Homer's comments in 10-19-0 make it clear that HH in a Hitting Procedure is perfectly valid, providing the user has sufficient skill in clubface manipulation. On rare occasions, I've hit the back of the ball instead of the inside, but that's hardly a disaster.

Hitting and horizontal hinging
 

My concern in Homers words in 10-19-0 is "with reservations."
Manipulation = something unnatural or a deviation from it's normal application.
I've never wanted to be the master of manipulation in my own stroke pattern. I've always wanted to be the master of simplicity. I'm simply presenting the motion in it's truest, unmanipulated form. I'm not saying it's impossible, just harder.
Homer also said in 1-K that "apparently there is no factor-including Clubhead Throwaway- that cannot, by proper assembly, adjustment, alignment, etc. be worked into a fairly effective Stroke Pattern for some application or other."
The words that I see as most impotant are "FAIRLY" and "some application."
Do I teach clubhead throwaway?
Not if I have other options.

YL,

Using your definition, "Manipulation = something unnatural or a deviation from it's normal application.", it strikes me that Hitting is a manipulation because a natural law, The Law of The Flail, is present in every stroke until preempted by thrust.

That aside, are you actually equivalencing by inference, teaching clubhead throwaway and teaching Hor Hinge Hitting? The one cannot produce an effectively struck golf ball, while the other most certainly can and does.

Horizontal hinge hitting - not 4 ME
 

"My way" IS NOT "The way." I don't expect any of my students to do it exactly the way I do it. Additionally, I have no doubt that you can create some sort of effective stroke pattern (that I'd like to see under the heat of competition) with horizontal hinge hitting. BUT, when Homer Kelley (genius) says that the driving force of the right arm "creates angled hinging," I will not attempt to re-invent the (paddle) wheel.

I just played with one of my Tour Players today at Big Horn in Palm Springs. I could have employed a horizontal hinge action with my hitting and spent all day in the cacti and rattle snakes. Or, I could take the 70 :shock: that I shot (74.8 course rating/141 slope rating & first time seeing the course) using angled hinging. I'm simply telling you my perspective from my own personal experience and success.

The Smoke
 

Luke's the Real Deal, guys.

Always had the talent.

Always had the drive.

But until last year...

Never had the Information and Alignments.

Now he's got all three.

Watch his smoke!

Man i would LOVE to see this guy HIT!!!! Sounds like the near perfect hitting stroke per chapter 12.

John

Coming Soon To A Computer Screen Near You!
 

You won't have to wait much longer, John.

Luke the Nuke will be on your screen before you know it.

And he will tell you exactly how to build your own Golfing Machine.

Stay tuned!

Interesting that Homer's Third Edition 3 accumulator stroke pattern had these components....punch basic right arm motion, standard wrist action, right arm throw, and horizontal hinging.

DG

DG,

That is what I've been describing except for the standard wrist action. Is the 3rd edition the one that everyone wants and can't find? If so, I'm now on the list. And why do these useful patterns keep disappearing in later editions?

Many thanks.

Well,
after two years I'm still curious to see the end of this debate.
Angled or horizontal. Anybody else besides Mizuno hits regularly
with Horhinging ? (with good results of course)

I think anytime HH action is used outside a true throw out Swing stroke, throw away is bound to occur unless the Hands are extremely talented.