Question about Tomasello's Video and Hitting
 

Can someone explain why on the Tomasello video he says hitting will cause a loss of distance compared to swinging. Also he talked about the ball flight was a fade from what I have read on this forum about hitting the ball flight is straight. Did he not use any kind of swivel at the end for the hits?

My guess is there are very, very few TGM instructors that really understand the hitting procedure.
I can only name 3 or 4 today that get it, and Lynn is at the top of that list.
There are more TGM instructors being trained on hitting, but that is a recent development IMHO.

Bagger

Thanks for the info. I think once I figure out the hitting procedure it will be more accurate.
Tim
Dallas, TX

hitting vs swinging
 

Having worked and studied the hiting concept in general there is truth that the fade is usually the ball flight unless compensations are introduced and it takes a bit of more musular effort with good technique to hit the ball long. The angle hinging action for hitters is most compatible versus horizontal hinging is compatible with swinging. As stated in a previous post Yoda and Yodasluke are masters in the art of hitting and if you plan to use hitting you should get lessons or study the various forums to understand the difference in technique. For example the hitter does not use a start up swivel and keeps the clubface facing the ball as long as possible on the backswing. If you really get a chance get down to the swamp and book a lesson with yodasluke. He is great and he can quickly determine if you are suited to hitting.

Dave

Trust me...as a student of Tomasello's, Tommy knew how to use and teach the hitting procedure...

DG

I trust ya DG.
It just didn't come across well on the video.

I hope you get a chance to learn it first hand from Ted or Lynn sometime as well.
So you can compare notes.

:) :)

Bagger,

The Australia video was just snap shot of Tommy's teaching.


DG

hitting distance
 

From my personal experience, I find that I Hit the ball farther than I do when Swinging. Hitting is my pattern. I don't practice Swinging. I would have to work on my release interval to get the distance with Swinging. My clubhead speed when Hitting is 112 with a driver. My clubhead speed when Swinging is 106. I believe that I could get them to match if I ever worked on swinging. But, I don't believe that I would find any appreciable difference in either if I practiced both.

The Swinger gains in all the vectors being aligned. The Hitter gains in the use of the powerful right triceps.

Just from some of the statements that I've heard Homer make about Right Arm Swinging (7-19: 10-3-K, Bat with loosened wrists) I choose to stay away from it..."There's no particular advantage", "You lose all radius to the feet".

But, I am not a Tomasello expert. For that, you'll have to speak to Delaware Golf.

Venus and Mars: A Date In the Lab
 

One of my personal goals at the coming Titleist Performance Institue meeting will be to explore this whole idea of Swinging versus Hitting. This would include such quantitative data as Clubhead Speed at Release and Impact, the relative effects of Impact Deceleration on Post-Impact Clubhead Speed (and, ultimately, Ball Speed) and any differences in the Downstroke 'firing' sequence.

I am also interested in any differences in Right Shoulder Rotation (both degree and speed); 'feel versus real', i.e., the Swinger's strong sense of Lag Pressure (as produced and sustained by Body Momentum Transfer) versus the Hitter's Lag Pressure (initially Loaded by the Pivot but sustained by an actively driving Right Arm); and, the effect (on distance) of the Hitter's Clubface Layback during Impact. Ideally, we would be able to measure the relative mechanical advantages of Body Momentum Transfer (Swinger) and the Right Triceps (Hitter).

Finally, given the data, we may be able to come to some conclusions as to the respective physical abilities required and perhaps even the effect of personality type on psychological preference.

agreed.....got back alot of length and game incorporating TT's and DG's stuff from the Aussie vid's----want and need more, but right now into wheat harvest and then maybe work the dogs over some prime pheasant hunting this fall

Yoda,
This really intrigues me. Where will you get the 'test subjects'? To do this well, you might actually have to use one person on swinging and compare to another person hitting...which then raises issues. I'm not sure one individual can do both equally well since the differences in the two motions are both subtle and not so subtle.

Ted switched me to hitting a year and a half ago....now I'm not a great player but I have a 1.8 index (down from roughly 3 when I first came to Ted..go Ted!) What I've found is a) on the course I swit probably 50% of the time... it is hard to eliminate cf and it doesn't take much to overpower the right triceps b)I 'think' I can generate slightly more clubhead speed swinging....but again I don't hit or swing optimally all the time (ever? might be more correct when referring to optimal) and I can't pivot well enough swinging to keep the ball in the same zipcode. In my very limited experience I find it hard to believe that there is someone who can, on command, switch and optimally execute both stroke patterns.... and I believe opimal is necessary because some of the differences are subtle. Although, I await anxiously ANY feedback that comes from the TPI experience, as I'm running out of time (just speaking for my 59 yr. old self) and still need tons of help.

YES, YOU CAN SWITCH FROM BOTH PATTERNS ON COMMAND AND GENERATE OPTIMAL SHOTS (just watch the Tomasello videos (I also think Tommy developed his playing and teaching approach around moving between hitting and swinging with ease and moving between the different hinge actions with ease too), I believe Yoda can hit and swing equally as well too). However, I swing more than I hit. I don't I need to incorporate more hitting (hitting stroke pattern) with my irons to achieve MORE accuracy. The right arm swinging stroke pattern I learned from Tomasello has all of the accuracy I need (almost holed a 7 iron from 160 yards last weekend, ball mark was two inches from the cup). I mainly use hitting with full shots for distance control and sometimes spinning the ball left to right on the green towards the pin. So, I use hitting as a strategic asset rather than as a primary stroke pattern.

On audio tape, I have Tomasello commenting on his game from a personal journal entry....to paraphrase the comment "striking the ball as good as ever and shooting par or better". The "shooting par or better" is a direct quote, I don't think it gets better than that...


DG

If strong..
 

No need for all that research, I can tell you the answer now :eyes: "If strong - Hit. If quick - Swing. If both - do either. Or both."

There is a very nice telephone conversation on the Croker site between you and Homer (on the phone) is which he says "As soon as he has mastered swinging, he should immediately tackle the hitting." "A real artist should know both of them, as they're
not much different from each other..". "..like an artist using different brushes.." It's called TGM_Tom_Tomasello_ Lynn_ Blake_Homer_ Kelley.mp3 (11,148KB although obviously the conversation continues). Very interesting to listen too. I feel like I know Homer a little. (And you too :)! )

Proving What We Know
 

We have only one day, and the test subjects must come from our own group. So, the definitive proofs and samples necessary for a doctoral thesis or professional journal White Paper are a bit much to hope for. However, I will be pleased if we are able to quantify, however loosely, the very definite difference in the physics of the two actions.

Homer Kelley contended that Hitting and Swinging seemed "equally efficient" but also that they "do not mix." We will bring the resources of TPI and the Mastermind of those assembled to bear on those statements made so long ago. If we are at all successful, we may be able to contribute something new.

you will find higher smash factors on average more often with hitting, this has been my experience with multiple launch monitor fittings.

Also, if done correctly i believe you should be able to swing just as fast using either hitting or swinging.

Lynn,

Thanks for that statement.... Given the many differences in technique (at least what appear to be many differences for a newbie like me) I did think it almost impossible to mix them sucessfullly during a round. I started out swinging, Ted switched me, and now on very rare occasions when I try to 'swing' (ONLY on the range)I have lots of trouble. Now, if I'd been working on both patterns for 15-20 yrs. I'd be pretty sure I could execute both...on the range, I'm not sure I'd be so sucessful on the course.

More On the Swinger's Right Arm
 

I may not have made Homer's position clear, psheehan. He felt that all players so inclined should learn both procedures and be able to use them interchangeably during a round. What he cautioned against was mixing Hitting and Swinging Components in a single Basic Stroke Pattern. Most especially, attempting to add the Hitter's Right Arm Thrust to a Centrifugal Force Swing.

Over time, he came to the conclusion that the use of the #1 Accumulator (Right Elbow) to actively drive the Club through Release and Impact was incompatible with the Swinger's Centrifugal procedure. In other words, Centrifugal Force wants to go only 'so fast,' and if you use the Right Triceps in an attempt to make it go faster (through Radial, not Longitudinal, Acceleration), it resists the attempt. Not only is there no power gain, there is actually a power loss. Worst of all, precision alignments scatter like jackstraws.

The problem we have here, though, is that the Swinger does feel a lot of Right Arm, even though it is passive as a Stroke Driver. It picks up the Rotation of the Body (specifically, the Right Shoulder) and senses the Pull of Longitudinal Acceleration (Accelerating the Club lengthwise) created by that Momentum Transfer as Clubhead Lag Pressure Point Pressure (in the #3 Pressure Point, the Right Hand index finger). He then uses the Right Forearm and #3 Pressure Point Pressure (the Basic Thrust of the Stroke) in an 'underhand Pitch' motion -- I personally think of it as 'sidearm' because the motion must be on the Inclined Plane -- to Trace the Delivery Line in the Downstroke and to deliver a stiff-wristed Slap through Impact (the Major Basic Stroke per 7-3 and 10-3-B). All this while maintaining Right Triceps Extensor Action (whose Pressure is exerted at Pressure Point #1, the heel of the Right Hand against the Left Hand thumb). No wonder Hogan wrote that he wanted "three right hands" at Impact!

In the end, by Homer's own statement, "there isn't all that much difference between the two...". Hitters and Swingers share one Geometry (of the circle) but the nature of their Right Arm participation differentiates their physics (of Rotation). Hence, there are two basic Strokes, i.e., two separate and distinct ways to move the Golf Club: You can Push the Clubshaft Radially with Muscular Thrust or Pull the Clubshaft Longitudinally with Centrifugal Force. On any given Stroke, you can do one or the other. But avoid attempting both at the same time, because...

That way lies sorrow.

More than Extensor Action
 

Could this be the "secret" of using Right Arm Thrust when Swinging? That is, using your Right Arm to Accelerate the Club Longitundinally (lengthwise).

Right Arm And Left Arm Swings
 

Using the Right Arm to Accelerate the Club Longitudinally is the classic Right Arm Swing. The procedure I've described above is Left Arm Swing (because the center of the Clubhead Arc remains at the Left Shoulder, i.e., it is not transferred to the Right Elbow).

Again, though, we have a both a semantics and 'feel versus real' problem here. That's because, while the Right Arm is active in a Right Arm Swing (and also in a Right Arm Hit), the Left Arm is not active in a Left Arm Swing. Instead, it is essentially inert and provides only a structural contribution (as part of the Primary Lever Assembly and the Radius of the Stroke). It is Accelerated by the rotational transfer of the Body's momentum (in contrast to its Acceleration in the Right Arm Swing by the right triceps). And the Lag Pressure thus produced -- and which drives the Club -- is sensed in the Right Hand's #3 Pressure Point. Hence, a strong Right Hand Feel in a Left Arm Stroke.

"The mystery of the Mechanics of Golf fades away when Right Arm participation is understood."

-- Homer Kelley (1-F)

Right Arm Swing and Hitting
 

Both of my procedures feel different...right arm swing and right arm hit.

You guys can talk about the right triceps all you want...my main focus is on the right forearm...The Magic of the Right Forearm.

DG

Right Arm Swinging and Longitudinal Acceleration
 

Yes...Tongzilla, I think you're on the money. As Tomasello would have said..."It's one smooth motion"...Right Arm Swingers don't start the downswing with their lower body...the downswing is started with the right forearm and the uncocking of the right elbow. See Tomasello's July 1991 Golf Illustrated interview....

GI: This "throwing the club down" with the right forearm---doesn't that go against everything we've been taught about the downswing?

Tomasello: Yes. The delayed hit is merely keeping the right wrist bent through impact. All that stuff about leading the downswing with a lateral move of the lower body, driving the hips and legs toward the target to retain power--it's all terribly wrong! It seems to be what's happening in the most efficient, centrifugal-force golf swing. The reality that most people can't comprehend is that in the centrigual-force swing there is no forward motion by any part of the body. There are just the two "force vectors" I've described.

GI: Are you saying that the golfer has to do less with his body? Aren't there any physical requirements?

Tomsello: The only agility needed by the player is to be able to turn the hips--to pivot around a fixed point--and to lever and unlever the right forearm. The faster you can make these two movements, the greater the centrigual force you'll build up and the farther you'll hit the ball.

See the Tomasello Letter series for clarification on the participation of the hips (lower body) in the above swing. Mark Evershed coined the phrase "quiet body".

DG

Having watched alot of Evershed's stuff i took it to be that he was a hitter as he constantly referred to the right arm specifically forearm controlling the motion. Having emailed him direct to ask him about that he has confirmed he is a swinger so therefore must be a right arm swinger. Obviously the link with him and TT is well known. It appears to be another method adapted from the many different ways to transport the club head from address to finish which is The Golfing Machine.

Yes, Mark's primary pattern is a swinging pattern (controlled by the right forearm). He also hits too (secondary pattern).

Thanks for the input golfer24.

At this point...after watching all of Tomasello video's, studying with Tommy personally, reviewing cassette tapes of my lessons with Tommy and now reading the 7th edition of the golfing machine...I believe Tomasello was deeply into the 7th edition by the mid-1980's...just read the new section of 12-5-3 then read 10-3-D and 10-3-K, then go to the chapter series video number 5, the video on "Power". When I studied with Tomasello in 1993 he made the comment "I have the 7th edition too". For what I've heard, Tomasello had a copy of the notes for the seventh edition at the time of Homer's passing or shortly after.

DG

Sorry I didn't make myself clear enough.

I was referring to the situation where the Left Shoulder remains the Stroke Center even though the Right Tricep further aids the Longitudinal Acceleration provided by the rotating Pivot.