Politically Correct Answer
 

I was asked by a female golfer... why in general do the men tour players hit the ball so much futher than the female tour players?

I explained that I thought that men in general are larger( have more mass), and have more upper body strength. Even though the L.P.G.A. players are good athletes, and are quite strong, they still are in general not as large and strong as the men.

I played with some middle ranked L.P.G.A. pros a few years ago. They were very impressive, and scored a little better than I did( they putted very well). The distance difference, however, was quite obvious. I was 20 to 40 yards ahead of them most of the time. They were driving the ball about 220 to 230, but very straight. At the time... their drives were about like my 1 irons.

Anyway... I told her this same story, and she actually agreed. She thought it was silly to think that women pros could compete with the men. She said she did not see the point of A. Sorenstam playing in the men's tournament.

Well... I kind of let the topic drop after this. What do you think?

The score doesn't know who was playing.

Anyone who can compete (score) should be allowed to play, from the same tees.

IMO the distance differences have more to do with 'lever length' than body mass or strength. Wie proves this. A tall woman with longer arms can hit the ball quite far given proper impact. Mass obviously matters however, and at the upper levels it will always be an edge.

Perhaps there should be 'weight classes' in golf, as they do in other sports :wink:

What about?
 

Michelle Wie hits her drives 300yds. Though tall, she doesn't weigh very much. And there have been more than a few small men who have it the ball a long way.

I'm not sure mass has anything to do with it.

I believe it is stated somewhere that body mass has less than a 1% effect on initial ball velocity.

There are several exceptions, like Michelle Wie. But, size and Mass must be some factor, because many of these women are the size of men. Michelle Wie is 6' tall, and Laura Davies is bigger than many men are. I would guess that the average female pro is about 5'6", and weighs about 135lbs..

The woman that I was talking to, thought that trying to put men and women, except for the very few exceptions, on the same playing field, was absurd. I was kind of surprised by this stance. I thought that nearly all women would be in favor of A. Sorenstam and Michelle Wie playing in men's tournaments, but she was not at all. She seemed to think that the vast majority of female pros could not compete equally with men, and should not be expected to.

I kind of like seeing Michelle and Anaka playing in the men's events, but it does not seem that all women are as amused by this. I kind of think, like EdZ, that if they can compete, it's OK.

Re: Politically Correct Answer
 

If women are allowed to compete with men, it should go equally the other way as well. I don't see why Michelle Wie, who hits it longer than some PGA Tour players, is still allowed to compete with women. Does she not have the same advantage over them that the shorter hitting men would have? If you are going to argue "physical advantage", then you really should stick to physical advantage, not gender. If you are going to allow intergender competition, you have to change the criteria. Strength or clubhead speed should be the factor, not sex.

Re: Politically Correct Answer
 

Look at the stats. #1 for the women was 270 yds. That would put her at about 170th on the men, just between those PGA giants Dean Wilson and Dick Mast. It would be unfair for a "weak" hitting male golfer to try to compete on LPGA. Because those male golfers hitting only 270 are hitting a very high percentage of fairways (see Fred Funk). Then they'd hit a PW when a female member is hitting an 8 or even 7 iron?

Lisa Leslie being able to dunk a basketball doesn't mean she should play for the NBA. Or more to the point, doesn't mean Allen Iverson should play in the WNBA.

Re: Politically Correct Answer
 

When you have Michelle Wie outdriving the men she plays with on Tour, how can you not say that she has an "unfair" advantage over the women when she plays on the LPGA? What about her advantage is different from the advantage of men who hit it the same distance? I agree that in general (95% of the time) women can't compete with the men as far as distance, but what about that other 5%. I haven't checked, but I will take you word for it that Dean Wilson and Dick Mast are the only 2 men shorter than the longerst woman. Why should Dean Wilson and Dick Mast not have the opportunity to play with the women? Their disadvantage puts them in a position where they don't have much chance to win on Tour, so why not let them compete where they have a chance? A penis is not the advantage a man has over a woman. His strength and clubhead speed are. So, if you have a man who doesn't have a strength and clubhead speed advantage over the women then there is no reason he shouldn't be able to play with them other than sexism. On that same note, when you have a woman who does have a strength and clubhead speed advantage over the majority of the women she competes against and decided to take it to the next level and play with the men, why does the LPGA Tour let her back on? What about her physical advantages?

I personally don't really care. I don't think women will ever realistically be able to compete with the men. I just don't like double standards and lies. If you are going to say something, I like you to come out and say it. If the LPGA would just say "We are sexist and don't want men on our Tour, but we want to be able to have women on both Tours so we can market better and get exposure", I would have been fine with everything, but they feel the need to sugarcoat the issue and say "Men have physical advantages". Their "reason" has holes in it and isn't always valid. The LPGA Tour wants to have their cake and eat it too.

I'll give an answer to the original question......

everytime i see a women's swing in slow motion i see early releases and clubhead throwaway, and bent left wrists.

I was watching the big break preview last night for the ladies and everyone of them had clubhead throwaway...some more than others.

Here is one who could do it the right way:

http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/90714/2/3179343

Jim's on the right track. Most women are using big pulley strokes just as most of the men do, but they don't have the rotational or arm speed to do it nearly as well. If they would only realize that the small pulley swing, which requires relatively slower arm speed, would give them the ability to fully utilize the #1 equalizer in golf - Left Wrist Cock.

Mickey Wright does have a good swing!

The real reason that men pros hit it further is... TESTOSTERONE

This enables men to develop more muscle mass, and strength, thus... more distance. Remember the controversy in Olympic women's swimming a few years ago?

Women have it, but not naturally as much.

so you're saying that Michele Wie has a lot of testerone and thus hits the ball a long way?

Wie uses a wide pulley Swing and starts losing Left Wrist Cock when her hands are just below the shoulder on the DS. When her hands reach the right thigh, her shaft is at best horizontal, and maybe a little below. Her huge arc and fast arms give her power. She looks very feminine, and I doubt she has above avg testosterone, but she does have a lot of fast twitch muscles.

Michelle Wie has a very good technique, is a good athlete, and is about the same size or bigger as a young Tiger Woods. Most of the very long hitting women, are about the same size as many men.

I doubt that Michelle has an unusual level of testosterone. She is a tall girl with long levers, and a good swing. She can probably fly the ball about 270 or 280. That's very good, but would not be unusual on the men's tour. With the new balls and equipment, Fred Funk can probably get close to that.

Actually... I asked a doctor(MD) what she thought the answer to the original question was. Her one word answer was... testosterone.

If you took two athletes (one male, one female) exactly the same height and weight and had them train exactly the same way... the male would be stronger because of the testosterone advantage.

Remember the Olympic Swimming controversy?

OR Testosterone. Even if Michelle Wie hits it 300 yds, she doesn't have a genetic makeup that automatically puts more strength in her body. It's the same reason we don't let other athletes inject themselves with steroids, because it's an unfair hormonal advantage. It has no bearing on their skill or mental toughness. You might as well say that it's ageist for Little League not to let 17 year old kids from the Phillipines to play.

Sexism is NOT stating that men and women are biochemically and physiologically different. That is medicine. Sexism is taking someone's theory of biology without fact and making a generalization (like a certain Ivy League president).

As an aside, I don't think Michelle Wie will dominate the LPGA, at least until she develops a better putting game/mental toughness.

Pulley
 

MizunoJoe,

I would like to hear more about this. MOST of the players that I have seen that have the small pulley swing... can not really explain how they accomplish it. That is, they just naturally or instinctively do it that way. I have, of course helped people with very SWEEPing releases and throwaway, learn to get more towards a Snap, or do you think the Releases and pulleys are totally different things?



Also... how do you think High hands, Low hands, and Hand Speed affects the pulley?

(This should probably be moved from the Lounge to Advanced.)

I agree. I would LOVE to see a good How To elaboration on this. A clip would also be good.

lagster this kinda parallels my point of view in the physics thread...in general for a human "golfing machine":

more mass->more muscle->more acceleration->more distance

...so i think maybe we're saying mostly the same thing with different words...cheers!:-)

-hcw

lagster,

The question, "do you think the Releases and pulleys are totally different things?" is an interesting one. First, what is the "pulley" section of the Swing? I consider it to be where the straight line path of the hands ends and the circular path begins. That begs the question of what if there is no straight line, for example a circular hand path? I suppose that's the largest possible pulley. The release can begin anywhere. A large pulley Swinger can be a sweep or snap releaser, or random variations of the two. However, in my mind the small pulley exists to complement the snap release with maximum Left Wrist Cock retention.

But how do we get a large or small pulley? The large pulley is created by keeping the Right Hand as far away from the Right Shoulder as possible by using Extensor Action. The small pulley is effected by directing the straight line effort toward the ball with a relaxed trail arm. The large pulley Swinger lays the shaft on the line, while the small pulley Swinger lays only the butt of the shaft on the line - that is, viewed from the front, when the large pulley gets his hands to the right thigh, the shaft is horizontal, for the small pulley, it is above horizontal. In my opinion, EA makes the horizontal position of the shaft at that hand position, the best the large pulley Swinger can do.

Left Wrist speed for the small pulley is lower by necessity, because the butt of the club moves a smaller distance during release, whereas the large pulley requires more LW speed during release to keep the butt of the club ahead of the clubhead at Impact. In fact, this is one way to characterize large and small pulley Swingers - by how fast their Left Wrists move through Impact. The bigger the pulley, the faster the LW must move.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

MizunoJoe,

It sounds like what you are saying is that with a BIG PULLEY SWING(STROKE), EXTENSOR ACTION is employed. This is where the rope like left arm is stretched by the action of the on plane right forearm.

With the SMALL PULLEY SWING... it sounds like BOTH ARMS ARE LIKE ROPES, AND extensor action IS NOT employed. Also...what do you believe keeps the left arm radius intact... momentum, centrifugal force, etc.?

lagster,

I extend the left arm, and the right isn't rope limp, but I'm not stretching the left arm by pushing on the left thumb with the right tricep. On the other hand, I'm not going to both arms limp after the BS as in the Gravity Golf Swing. I can't retain max Left Wrist Cock deep into the DS with any kind of right side tension. I strive to deliver the acute angle of the Left arm and clubshaft to release point.

MJ--thanks so much for your thoughtful response. Into the incubator it goes! :D

A man's testosterone has as many disadvantages as it does advantages.

These are own my ideas and are not TGM certified. But try this for yourself - get your hands as far down into the DS as possible with as much retained wristcock as possible using Extensor Action. Now figure out a way to get there with MORE retained wristcock.

Actually, I was doing this on my own this time last year, and was hitting my irons one club further (swinging). I got away from it when I started hitting my irons. But in the meantime, my driver, 3W, Hybrid distances have suffered greatly (I still swing them). I suspect this may be due to this very issue. Will test this as soon as I can get back to the range, probably next week.

Thanks again! Your posts have been very helpful. :)

True. But in development of muscle mass, strength, endurance and bone density (which favor all athletic endeavors including golf), testosterone is an advantage. That's why people inject themselves with anabolic steroids, to effectively increase their testosterone.

Making Maximum Power Happen
 

Hitting or Swinging, for maximum Power, the Release must be delayed "until all Components, except the Right Foot and the Right Shoulder, have reached or passed the Line-of-Sight-to-the-Ball..." (6-M-1). This includes the Right Elbow per 6-B-1-C.

Thanks Lynn!

Putting
 

Then explain why the boys are consistenly better putters.

Below the GIR putts stats for LPGA and PGA of 2004. First value pair is for the top ranked GIR putter (Cink and Grace Park) and so on.

Sorry about the size of this post. Do not have Excel on this PC. If I had I'd post a nice graph to make it more obvious. Maybe someone can copypaste & make the graph.

LPGA PGA
1,740 1,723
1,750 1,724
1,750 1,726
1,760 1,733
1,760 1,736
1,760 1,737
1,770 1,738
1,770 1,738
1,770 1,740
1,770 1,740
1,770 1,743
1,780 1,743
1,780 1,745
1,780 1,745
1,780 1,745
1,780 1,745
1,780 1,746
1,790 1,746
1,790 1,748
1,790 1,748
1,790 1,749
1,790 1,749
1,790 1,749
1,790 1,749
1,790 1,750
1,790 1,751
1,800 1,751
1,800 1,752
1,800 1,752
1,800 1,752
1,800 1,753
1,800 1,754
1,800 1,755
1,800 1,755
1,800 1,755
1,800 1,756
1,800 1,757
1,800 1,757
1,800 1,757
1,800 1,758
1,810 1,758
1,810 1,758
1,810 1,759
1,810 1,759
1,810 1,759
1,810 1,759
1,810 1,759
1,810 1,760
1,810 1,761
1,810 1,762
1,810 1,762
1,810 1,763
1,820 1,763
1,820 1,763
1,820 1,763
1,820 1,764
1,820 1,764
1,820 1,764
1,820 1,765
1,820 1,765
1,820 1,766
1,820 1,766
1,820 1,766
1,820 1,767
1,820 1,767
1,820 1,767
1,820 1,768
1,820 1,768
1,820 1,768
1,820 1,769
1,820 1,769
1,830 1,769
1,830 1,769
1,830 1,769
1,830 1,769
1,830 1,769
1,830 1,770
1,830 1,770
1,830 1,771
1,830 1,771
1,830 1,772
1,840 1,773
1,840 1,773
1,840 1,774
1,840 1,774
1,840 1,775
1,840 1,775
1,840 1,775
1,840 1,775
1,840 1,775
1,840 1,776
1,840 1,776
1,840 1,776
1,840 1,776
1,840 1,776
1,840 1,776
1,850 1,776
1,850 1,776
1,850 1,777
1,850 1,777
1,850 1,777
1,850 1,778
1,850 1,778
1,850 1,778
1,850 1,778
1,850 1,779
1,850 1,780
1,850 1,780
1,850 1,780
1,850 1,780
1,850 1,780
1,860 1,781
1,860 1,781
1,860 1,781
1,860 1,784
1,860 1,785
1,860 1,786
1,860 1,786
1,860 1,787
1,860 1,787
1,860 1,787
1,860 1,788
1,860 1,788
1,860 1,788
1,860 1,788
1,860 1,788
1,870 1,789
1,870 1,789
1,870 1,790
1,870 1,790
1,870 1,790
1,870 1,790
1,870 1,791
1,870 1,791
1,870 1,791
1,870 1,791
1,870 1,792
1,870 1,792
1,870 1,792
1,870 1,792
1,870 1,793
1,880 1,795
1,880 1,795
1,880 1,795
1,880 1,795
1,880 1,795
1,880 1,796
1,880 1,796
1,880 1,796
1,890 1,796
1,890 1,796
1,890 1,797
1,890 1,797
1,890 1,797
1,890 1,797
1,900 1,797
1,900 1,798
1,900 1,798
1,900 1,798
1,900 1,799
1,900 1,799
1,910 1,800
1,910 1,800
1,920 1,802
1,920 1,802
1,930 1,802
1,940 1,803
1,950 1,803
1,970 1,804

The Putt Is A Golf Shot
 

For the same reason they are better through the Green: They are better Ball Strikers.

I own just one course record.

On a very tight, very short course with 100+yr old oak trees.

City Park (New Orleans) South Course

Length - 5,000 yds
Bunkers - 0
Par - 68

Course record - 59

by: Brian Manzella, PGA , GSED - twice
and Bobby Crestman, PGA, GSEB

What's the point?

Having taught winners on both the LPGA and PGA Tours and College Champs, Junior starts, etc......

I feel Like I know what they would all shoot if they palyed a 72 hole TOON-A-MINT on that course in every day shape.

Rememebr 5,000 yards long......

Manzella Fantasy Open
results

Tiger Woods 48 under...low score 54
David Toms 45 under....low score 52
Hale Irwin 36 under....low score 56
John Holmes (high ranked NCAA player) 32 under....low round 57
Annika S. 28 under...low score 58
Michell Wie 24 under....low score 60
Matt Savage (20th ranked Junior) 22 under...low score 59
Patty Sheehan 20 under...low score 61
Itallian Stallion 12 under...low score 61

Think about it.....

Re: The Putt Is A Golf Shot
 

Interesting. Are you saying / do you think that:
1. Boys leave themself easier putts?
2. Boys have a better putt stroke (better putter Ball Striking)
3. There is no difference in boys and girls putting ability
4. There is no difference in boys and girls putting ability. Only comes down to proctice and that PGA is more competitive than LPGA
5. Competition among boys putting is tougher.
or even
6. Women on average might even be better putters than men.

or something else.

The Ball Knows (And Can't Keep A Secret)
 

Door Number Two.

Putts are just small drives :)