I Had an Amazing Practice today!!!! But I still have a quesetion.
 

Today on the range was the best practice I believe that I have ever had. I start with about 30 mins of basic and aquired motion, then I went into 8iron 6iron 2iron and driver, around 300 balls total. The sound and flight were so amazing. But I still have a question.

I was monitoring my right shoulder and how it loaded my PP#4. Then alittle later I was monitoring the place that my left shoulder was positioning its self as I came into impact. It felt like it was moving up and back some, and it felt like my right shoulder moving properly was causing this.

Just wanted to know if anyone else has had this feeling, or if this is dicussed somewhere in the greatest book ever?

To get people to move their right shoulder downplane correctly one of the greatest sayings ever is to get your LEFT SHOULDER "up and back."

Because if you can do that, the right shoulder will go down and out.

It also felt like it was just in the perfect spot for everything to happen. Hinge action, uncocking left wrist, rolling. etc. Just amazing. :)

[quote=6bmike]And it is better to let it just react than to use it as a trigger for right shoulder motion - a sure fire roundhousing recipe if ever there was one.

Babe And Carriage
 

Per 7-8 and 2-J-1, the Left Shoulder moves into its Impact Fix Location -- higher than at Adjusted Address -- as the Right Shoulder drives Down Plane (2-H, 7-13 and Photo 10-13-D-#3) via the Hip Turn and Axis Tilt (7-14).

It's a good thing.

:)

Line Up
 

That's the feeling, Nathan.

When the Right Shoulder, Right Forearm, and #3 Pressure Point drive the Lever Assemblies (Left Arm and Club) toward the Plane Line (1-L-#10), all at right angles to the Clubshaft/Sweetspot (1-L-#11), there are no conflicting alignments. Then, the Downstroke becomes one cohesive Motion from the Top to the Finish with everything 'all lined up.'

As Homer Kelley said of that serendipitous moment...

"Where did all the noise go?"

No Left Shoulder Drive
 

I agree that, in practice and drill, players should be aware of the return of the Left Shoulder to its Impact Fix Location. But...

Do you drive the Left Arm (and Club) by pulling the Left Shoulder back to its Fix Location?

Or do you drive it by thrusting the Right Shoulder -- against the Left Arm and its #4 Pressure Point -- toward the Ball?

In my forty years of golf, I have never heard or read of a great Champion describing the Left Shoulder as his Driving Force into Impact.

Right Knee.

Yes.

Right Hip.

Yes.

Left Hip.

Yes.

Right Shoulder.

Yes.

Right Arm.

Yes.

Right Hand.

Yes.

But never...

Left Shoulder.

The Secret of Golf -- Clubhead Lag (6-C-2-0/A) -- is all about 'Dragging the Wet Mop' -- unrelenting, inert Clubhead Lag Pressure -- through Impact.

And despite the fact that the 'Wet Mop' -- the Left Arm, Club and its Dead Weight Inertia -- hangs off the Left Shoulder, you don't Drag it 'back-handed' with your Left Shoulder and Arm. Instead, the uncoiling Left Side is led by Hip Action (7-15) that "throws" the Right Shoulder Down Plane. This welds the Left Arm against the side of the chest -- the #4 Pressure Point -- and Delivers the Assembled and Loaded Power Package into Release.

Swingers use Centrifugal Force Body Power -- rotational Momentum Transfer -- to sustain this Clubhead Drive through Impact. Hitters use Right Triceps Muscle Power.

Yoda I do agree with you. It was like my left shoulder just kept getting put into the perfect spot, but my right shoulder was causing it. For some reason I was just picking up on the feeling, of where my left shoulder was going to.

After studying TGM more and more, I have changed my setup, my tripod is finally centered, no more tilted head. I also now setup at a true impact fix and then move into the adjusted address position with centered tripod bent left and flat right. I think switching to this has allowed me to get a feel for impact more and my alignments are much better now.

My biggest misunderstanding is plane now. I really don't know what to look for in a video, I filmed today, and on my backswing about waist high the club was under the shaft plane (slighty) that scares me. I guess I need more right forearm pick up and less flanning.

But the one that really is getting me is the sweet spot plane, I saw where hunter put up the swinging stick man and I tried to draw those lines on the computer today. My sweet spot didn't stay on that line on the way down (It was under it) but at impact I was money babe, nice small draw.

I will be calling in the next month or so to come see you again, and we will get squared away.

Return To the Swamp
 

Great, Nathan.

See you then!

I like using "left shoulder up and back" but left hip I think can be a good key too.

I've read both Ernie Els and Nick Faldo say the left shoulder is the primary driver of their downswing. I'm sure they've said and felt other things at times, but Faldo is in his book and Els is in a Golf Digest article. Whether they were being truthful or not. . .

Matt

#4 Power Accumulator Power -- Feel And Real
 

In my post you've quoted, I said that, in practice and drill, the player should be aware of the return of the Left Shoulder to its Impact Fix Location. In fact, establishing the Stroke's Radius and the precision Left Shoulder-to-Ball Location is the primary purpose of the Address Routine of 2-J-1. If the Feel of that return assists the player in his Expanded Translation (of precision Mechanics to Feel per 3-E) -- that is, if it becomes a "key factor" in producing a "simplified Feel" of his Total Motion -- then, by all means, he should use it. But...

Regardless of Feel, it is the Start-Down Thrust of the Lagging Right Shoulder -- the "fastest and farthest moving component of the Pivot" that "actually transmits the Pivot motion to the Arms" (7-13). It is the Lagging Right Shoulder that reconciles both Pivot and Power Package by "moving with great precision of thrust, speed, direction and distance (2-H). It is the Lagging Right Shoulder that is "thrown" by the Hip Action (7-15) and thus "supplies the initial acceleration of the Downstroke" and the drive of the Left Arm and Club toward Impact. This is the very basic #4 Power Accumulator of 6-B-4-0/A/B/C.

And its Maximum Power and Maximum Trigger Delay are produced by using the Hip Action (7-15) of either the Standard or Delayed Pivot. This Action increases the Right Shoulder Turn's Pivot Lag, thus enabling its Maximum Thrust against Pressure Point #4 (where the Left Arm contacts the side of the Chest).

It is this last #4 Pressure Point that the good player Feels as he unwinds into the Ball. You mention Nick Faldo. Just recently he was featured on The Golf Channel in their program Playing Lessons With the Pros. I heard him repeatedly talk of "turning his chest" through the Ball. Now, whether he felt he was actuating this Rotation (Body Power per 2-M-4) with his Left Shoulder or his Right -- or with his Feet or his Knees or his Hips -- matters little...as long as that Rotation is accomplished. But the last thing to move in that Pivot Train (6-M-1) is the Right Shoulder, and that is what is producing the Pressure he is 'Feeling' when its 'from behind' Thrust welds his Left Arm against his Chest.

So, it is this #4 Pressure Point (10-11-0-4) that constitutes the Active Direct Drive of the Left Arm and Club, and it is Loaded by the Right Shoulder Turn's Thrust -- not the Left's -- per 6-B-4 and 7-19-3. In fact, in earlier editions, Homer Kelley specifically advised players seeking Maximum Power and Trigger Delay (of the #4 Accumulator) to "discourage any tendency toward an Arm Swing by either inactivating the muscles of the Left Shoulder or by temporarily overpowering them with the Thrust of the [right] Shoulder Turn." [Bold emphasis added.]

Now, Matt, you have stated that both Faldo (in his book) and Els (in a Golf Digest article) "say the left shoulder is the primary driver of their downswing." I am always interested in what the great players Feel in their Golf Strokes, and I would very much appreciate it if you would supply those specific references.

Pulling left shoulder back
 

Don't get me wrong. I certainly do not disagree with what
has been said. What I would like to present is a lesson that
I once took from a leading Instructor with TGM insight.

We were trying to determine which would be better for me,
Hitting or Swinging. The idea was that in either Hitting or
Swinging, that the right shoulder should be closer to the
target than the left shoulder at follow through. First, I was
to try hitting and see if I could get the right shoulder
closer to the target. I had trouble. Then the second step
was to try and get the right shoulder closer to the target
by pulling the left shoulder back to pull the right shoulder
through. This worked and I hit the ball 20 yards further.
Interest lesson.

Party of Two
 

Donn and I exchanged PMs on this subject. I asked him to give me more detail about his experience with this remarkable instructor. With his express permission, I am reprinting here what he had to say:

"Lynn, the instructor was Fran Deschaine. I have been trying to get him on line with your website. Fran was one of Anikan Skywalker's first instructors. Fran was the head of the Ben Sutton Golf School in Sun City, Florida, where he introduced the concept of differences in Hitting and Swinging. Fran also gave many PGA Instructor clinics to PGA Instructors. He would separate the group into Hitters and Swingers.

Before the lesson that I took, Fran asked me how familiar was I with Homer Kelley. The lesson was after a round we played years ago on a mini-tour. Fran won the Florida Open at age 50 and played some on the tour and Senior tour. Sure would be interesting to get him involved in your forums. Anikan probably more about Fran than I do.

My favorite quote is when the guy with you on the audio tape said to Homer Kelley, "Lynn just doesn't read The Golfing Machine, he lives it." I feel that I do the same with your website."

****************************

Thank you, Donn, for sharing your experience with us. There are many different ways of skinning the TGM cat. With regards to 'Body Power,' the key is sustaining Pivot Lag -- from the left little toe nail to the tip of the Right Shoulder! :) Together, you and Fran accomplished exactly that, a testament to your respective skills.

Thanks, Matt. I appreciate the time you took to research these quotes and to type them out for us all. This is the kind of dedication and sharing that takes everybody to a new level of understanding.

Left shoulder thingie.
 

Pardon my shallow knowledge of TGM and my english.

Right shoulder and left shoulder thing, I read alot of post here and another site. I personally think , left shoulder up is a Band Aid. This is why.

Lets leave TGM on one side and NO TGM. and do not think golf. put them aside.

If you throw a ball or anything forward , Would u throw more accurately , powerfully and further if u throw them;

1. Forehand Pitching
2. Backhand flat wrist disc throw?

Would you think of

1. your hand and right arms.
2. your right shoulder
3. Your left shoulder

So when you throw something forward for instance , you think about your left shoulder clearing so that your right shoulder so that your right hand can do the work? You can ! But do you prefer to think like that, and is it a better way to think like that?

Or your would think of your right hand and arm, and the rest will provide the best support and momentum to do the job? And your Body will Naturally tilt so that your right shoulder provide the best support. Thats how your body will react to power. Do you think about it? Maybe yes maybe not.


back to TGM mode;

Since golf involved 2 arms. One can argue is different, but if one could never understand the role of the right shoulder, would not it be harder to have Out 4ward down 3 dimensional impact? I find it harder. And I notice something, I easily lose Extensor Action on the throughswing if i concentrate on the left shoulder up .

I too gained alot of yardage s just by understanding about the right shoulder. I think the keyword here is potential and efficiency here. Not just hitting straight and hitting balls everybody can do that.

Thats why 5-0 2-H is there for us to understand. One chapter alone do not really make sense. I think you need at least 2 chapters . Therefore, I stand behind Masters of LGB on this one firmly!



From a Jedi Wannabe.

Your welcome Yoda, I apologize for the mix-up.

The Grail
 

Matt,

Again I thank you for your contribution. At a very young age, your initiative has led you to the principles and procedures of the great Champions of our time...and of all time.

I only wish I had been so fortunate (or so innovative) when I was your age. Back in my own 20s and 30s, the rage was to 'drive the Legs' from the Top. And to keep the Head way back 'behind the ball' through Impact. And to end up in a big 'Reverse C' at the Finish.

Well, it didn't work. At least not for me. And not for many others, either. Look at the photographs from that time. Most of the guys either left the Game hurt or else radically changed their procedure (view Tom Kite as the Poster Boy here). Many had a lot of very personal stuff replaced as they struggled to compete in their 40s. And those without a superior short game never had much of a chance anyway, because the procedure I've described rarely results in a superior GIR stat.

It was all so sad...and so very unnecessary.

By my early-30s, not only was a worse player than in my early-20s...

I was a virtual cripple on Mondays.

I can't tell you how much business I conducted from the floor of my office on Monday through Thursday because of my golfing activities on Friday through Sunday.

And now, as I approach my 60th birthday next month, there is no pain. It's all gone. Not only do I hit balls as long as I like...and teach as long as I like...and shop (as long as my wife likes :))...I do so without pain.

I cannot tell everybody enough just how important it is to know exactly WHAT drives WHAT in the Golf Stroke. And how important it is to know just what are the true relationships among the various Components. You simply cannot rely on FEEL as articulated by the great players. You MUST know the precise Mechanic involved and then be able to reproduce it with your own Feel.

I write all this so that you don't spend precious years -- as I did -- chasing the wil-'o-the-wisp of conventional golf instruction (though it's much better now) -- and forego, in that selfsame moment, The Truth.

Life is short...

Play hard.

But also play smart.

The information is there.

Don't run from it.

Embrace it.

And with access to such great knowledge comes great responsibility! Just 5 years ago, shortly after high school graduation I set out to transform my 4 handicap game into something I might be able to take on the road. Turns out I didn't have a back that could handle the strain and I lacked the proper information. Now I have access to the information I need, I merely have to develop a pattern with it. And what a fine journey it will turn out to be afterall. Because a blind struggle just isn't fun.

Matt

Answer me this ONE QUESTION, please.

If you REALLY REALLY wanted to throw a frisbee as far as you could, which shoulder would predominately think about? The lead shoulder or the trail shoulder.

;)

The fact of the matter is this:

If the right shoulder is moving DOWNPLANE it is moving down/out/foward which makes the left shoulder do what? The left shoulder moves UP/IN/BACK.

The Gyroscope
 

Personally...

If I was thinking about a body part at all, I would be thinking about my spinning Hips.

And once I got that Pivot activity relegated to subconscious control, I would focus on creating (and sensing) maximum Lag Pressure in my Left Hand.

And once I sensed Lag...

My focus would be on slinging that dadgum disc as far as I possibly could!

:)

Exactly .. None of which (personally i pick right hand #3 and left thumb). But the hands. But never the left shoulder and I do understand the Role of the right shoulder 2-H but i do not think about it.

Please read again (first forgeting whatever TGM says)

and

Again Reread

Yoda

Do you think about it? you can. Do you have to? No. ( they are placed in the subconsious level the right shoulder the Hips, they reacted to the hand)

Of course , In any golf swing you are given a choice. But if you are talking Efficiency. I will pick 5-0 , 2-H

If you can get me to hit another 20 yards thinking about clearing the left shoulder, I think I am yours Jim.

By the way, I got a question back for you Jim. How would u setup yourself for the Maximum Trigger Delay by thinking of clearing of left shoulder. I'm curious

Right Handers Need Not Apply
 

Nuke,

Unless I missed my guess, Jim is assuming a left-handed frisbee toss. So, the right hand option is not available.

:oops: Noted Master.

A Jedi Wannabe

The frisbee toss would have to be two handed in order for it to be an apt analogy, no?

I think the frisbee is an interesting analogy.

You could not toss a frisbee (well) from the backside of the disc.

The hand grips the target side of the disc and everything lags behind.

Why does it have to be one shoulder or the other? What about a core powered pivot that is centred?

CW

Im not a fan of the frisbee toss idea.

The left arm is above plane for the majority of the stroke, the left arm 'cones' into the inclined plane until it eventually is on the inclined plane at followthrough. The idea when throwing a frisbee is that you throw it on the plane of motion of the left arm, however the left arm is not onplane in the golf stroke, it thus compounds the ignorance of this fact.

Throwing
 

If you want a throwing feel... I believe Mr. Kelley said the feel is similar to a underhand softball toss(right handed).

Hey Mathew,

Does the left arm karate chop that seems to be often recommended for swingers have the same problem then?

Its something that i've always struggled to understand because if the left arm is the power source (for the swinger) then it seems natural to uncock down its plane. Any advice on how not to fall into that trap?

Cheers,

Danny

Not Mathew . . . But credit to him . . . you could think of it more as a Slinging Back Hand Slap . . .

You are using your pivot to DRAG your inert left arm down to SLAP somebody with the back of your left hand. But you ain't slappin with the power of your arm you're slingin' and slappin' with pivot power.

Sling and slap.. Someone Getting Kinky !!

Score 1 Vs 1

/wink

Thanks for the reply Bucket, that left arm slap certainly is a powerful image.

But i'm still having trouble getting it. :confused1
I can't see how this would change the natural tendancy to uncock down the plane of the left arm?

Analogies aside...pro examples aside....

I am a left shoulder guy...

It works for me....

My ballstriking falls apart if I TRY to drive my right shoulder....I hit it much better pulling with the left side.....left shoulder up and back has been my thought for a while now....

I understand what the right shoulder HAS TO do....and will never dispute that role...

But I accomplish it (and for me, more efficiently) like this.

My thinking (personally) is just that if I'm supposed to be PULLING (I am a Swinger)....I should be doing just that....pulling.....and to me, pulling is not done as efficiently with the right shoulder. (to me, and for me)

...

Then again, we should all be open to everything....try everything....and USE what works best. (for yourself, as an individual)

Can you ask your question again? You DO Uncock down the plane of the Left Arm . . . that is the Left Arm Flying Wedge . . .so you are correct . . .

So as a swinger you UNCOCK (Karate Chop) then ROLL (Slap) as your left wrist is moving to fully Uncocked. This is all done via CF . . .if you allow it to happen.

A more powerful image for you may be to check out the thread on Endless Belt . . . Yoda has some great images of the belt.

I always suspected but now i know i am completely stupid... :doh::BangHead: :crybaby:

A karate chop is a strike made with the heel of the hand which in golf is thrust by the pivot towards a point on the plane line. It is a strike towards the plane line and not a strike gliding along the plane line. This is trying to control the clubhead orbit with the left arm which is a big no no in golf. It is the downstroke prior to the release motions maintaining the palm directly towards the inclined plane.

However this karate chop strike towards the plane line is guided via the clubhead control of the right hand or specifically pp3 drawing a straight line of thrust towards an aiming point after you adjust yourself in a position to do so (top arc).

Why is trying to control the clubhead orbit with the left arm a no-no? Because of its offplane position during release/impact?
What's wrong with maintaining the left arm flying wedge?

CW

The left arm is always offplane - until followthrough. The left arm/hand has no direct control over the clubhead because of it.

I never said that you destroy the left arm flying wedge - I am merely stating the FACTS that it has to comply with - namely the inclined plane....

A frisbee is thrown on the plane of the arm - it does describe longitundinal acceleration in relation to the inclined plane. It however is not an accurate description of the motion.

Cheers for that Mathew, i think i'm getting a better understanding of that now.

Thanks Danny :)

Just one thing I would like to add that I think I should of mentioned also. Is when preforming a karate chop - when the hand is turned towards the plane - the motion the hand is going to accelerate is parallel to the plane line.

In this context you could say you are preforming a karate chop along the plane line - it is not right to say it in the context of along in the sence of directly pointing towards the plane line....ie frisbee toss.