Swinging and LAG howto?
 

Hi, after studying a lot in this great site, here comes my first post!
I am quite new to TGM, so forgive me (and feel free to correct me) if I mess up with some TGM principles.

Here are recent pictures and videos of my swing.
I'm amazed by the differences:

Usual SWING:


LAG SWING:


You can download the videos here:
http://digitalmarket.free.fr/6I-YodeliSwing.mov
http://digitalmarket.free.fr/6I-YodeliLAG.mov

In the first sequence I (try to?) SWING: Spin the Flywheel and go down and out.
This used to be my standard Swing: The ball goes quite far and I can shoot 82 on a regular basis with this.

But you can see an ugly throwaway of the club. I also think it leads to this big sway to stay in balance with the club being thrown behind me before impact (I hate the position of my arms at impact!).
But strangely enough, it seems to me that I can still maintain a flat left wrist during the follow-through by holding the club (is it Steering?) with the right forearm bent on the follow-through, wich I know is not good but don't know how to avoid.


Now, in the second sequence I felt LAG for the first time :) by doing what I think may be "accumulator LAG" (as per Yoda).

To create this LAG, I did pretty much the same thing that ED mentionned in this post: http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=3113

I felt quite loose in the wrists during the takeaway (is this Drag Loading?). Then, when my hands where at shoulder height I abruptly interrupted the backswing by lowering my hands to the ground.

It felt like I did a 1/3 backswing with a Hitting Procedure (Am I right? My clubface on the follow-through suggests a SWING (Horizontal hinge action))?.

I felt compression on the ball which is what I wanted.
However I found it hard to control the direction and distance of the ball: I hit it straight left 1/4 of the time (I think this has something to do with the right arm not extending after impact) with distance variations which are improper for use on the course!

Anyway I would love to stick to this feeling because I sense there is something new and also the whole Swing look better on video (Except the follow-through where I still can’t go fully extended).

So I tried to incorporate this LAG feeling into my Swinging procedure…


In fact, the first SWING sequence was taken AFTER the LAG sequence and as you can see, despite my efforts, I'm unable to find this LAG when I do my SWINGING procedure :crybaby: (spinning the flywheel, THROW the club down and out): For example, I feel like there is no pressure at all in PP3 during the Downswing.

Should I stick to what I did when I tried the LAG?
What can I do to reproduce LAG when SWINGING (the THROW of the club makes me feel nothing on PP3)?
What can I do to fully extend my right arm after impact while doing the LAG?

Thank you for your comments and again, greetings to Yoda, the content of this site is amazing!

Yodeli's First Post
 

That was quite a first post, yodeli. Very impressive!

There's lot's to digest here, but there definitely is a remarkable difference between these two Strokes. Personally, I like the one with Lag!

I'll come back when I've got a bit more time.

Just a few quick points: in your usual swing you seem to ‘throw’ the clubhead early from the top- sort of a sweep release- nothing wrong with an early throw or sweep release BUT frame 9 is ugly (your word-:) ). Practice Impact Fix so the right wrist is bent at impact and the left wrist is flat. This is independent of Lag. Check ball location

In your Lag swing- frame 8 your head turns off the ball ala Sorenstam. Try to concentrate on a rear aft dimple on the ball with your eyes. Now if you threw a line from your eyes to the ball- your ‘Line of Sight’- allow your hands to pass through this LoS to an Aiming Point. Your pivot and hands will release the clubhead (accumulator Lag). Find a ball location.

You like the ‘Low and Wide’ Left shoulder turn take-away. A Right Forearm Takeway will help. The folding of the right arm at the elbow cocks the left wrist either as a muscular action for Hitters or as a centrifugal force motion for swingers. For Swingers this will feel like Drag Loading because this motion ‘slams/sets/loads’ the shaft into pp3 at the top of the stroke. A Hitters action of folding sets pp3 early.

Lag
 

Make swings with your right thumb off the club.........

lag pressure
 

I would never do the "usual" swing again. I love the changes you've made. Keep up the good work; it's very impressive.

As far as the lack of straightening in the right arm, the biceps must be resisting the straightening of the arm. I would have you work from the smaller strokes to the bigger strokes, while looking at your right arm in the finish. Obviously, the right arm should bend when finishing Total Motion. See if you can look at your arm after every stroke. If it's bent in the finish, straighten it, while you keep looking at it. If Extensor Action is properly employed throughout the stroke, centrifugal force should straighten the right arm.

It looks like a Swing to me, and I'd leave it that way. But, I'd add Extensor Action to Follow-Through.

Thank you Yoda, and ok, this first poll was a bit verbose!
But there is much to say and I am very excited about this LAG feeling because I sense this is a major key for me and many serious G.O.L.F.ers!

So I decided to go on, throw my old swing forever and build a new one around this LAG feeling.
I’ll keep you informed on my progress and discoveries!

As I experienced LAG only a few days ago, I think it could be helpful for someone if I explain how I get there!

1. I started to read a lot of posts regarding LAG in this forum to gather general information :).
2. I learned to “drag the wet mop” by watching the following videos:
   -[click on] Drag Your Wet Mop - easy to reproduce what I saw and the best one to understand the proper stroke mechanisms -
   - [click on]The Vikie Lake series: Because it covers many of the basics!
3. I went to the short range practice zone and did a lot of Basic Motion (20 meters to the pin) to help me feeling the hands past the ball with FLWrist and BRWrist.
   LAG whas easy to do and to feel by simply getting my wrists loose on the backswing and then focusing on getting my hands past the ball before impact (I think it is a DRAG loading procedure?).
4. Then I increased the distance to the practice green and went to 40 meters. As a result I started to practice Acquired Motion (See also the John Riegger series on this)
5. Finally I went to 80 meters still with Acquired Motion (no Swivel) and focusing on doing the same thing with my hands I did in Basic Motion. I was still able to feel the LAG and clubshaft bend.
   The easiest way to do it was to start the downstroke by interrupting my backswing while having "loose wrists".
   The tricky thing here is to avoid being too quick. You must stay cool and laaaazy on the downstroke to allow for the LAG to load (feeling the clubhead heaaaaavy).
6. Now I work on the Total Motion by adding the Swivel (currently practicing that one).

What “early releasers” must understand is that it took me only 4 visits at the range to learn and recognize the feelings.
I was trying to get rid of my clubhead throwaway for 2 years and I understand now that I could have kept it all my life without those little trainings at the range!!! :naughty:

This said, I am still very curious to understand why the THROW of the SWING make me feel no pressure on PP3 as opposed to a HIT where I can feel something…

(Still very verbose uh?!) :laughing9

Our posts crossed on this point!
I totally agree with you, I will throw this swing FOREVER :salut:, stick to the changes and I will keep you informed of the things I notice as my SWING evolves!
I think it will be very instructive to anbody to see how much time it will take to apply the proper transformations (the previous ones happened in only 4 sessions!).
It makes sense to me because this is what I saw on the short range: I was able to keep my right arm fully extended after impact.

Yes agreed, I wasn't 100% sure before but I noticed a horizontal hinge action on the Follow-Through.

Agreed also on extensor action. I've never focused on it on my new swing, but I know its virtues because when I did it in my previous swing the ball striking was superior.

I'll try it on the range.

However, extensor action seems to stiffen my wrists and thus I wonder if will still be able to Drag Load with it. We'll see...

By the way, thank you 6BMIKE and SwingNorthtoSouth. I will also try your advices and keep you informed if they worked for me.

Struck and confused!
 

Aaah, back again after a lot more testing. Here are the results and more questions:

After more practice with the "Lag Swing" I'm now struck in a dead-end: I explained that to achieve this result I was doing what felt like a 1/3 backswing interrupted on its way by immediately starting the downstroke.
Even if the result looks good on the pictures, it is still a short swing (acquired motion?) and the ball doesn't go as farther as the previous "ugly swing".

You bet what I did?

I tried to go from 1/3 swing to Full Swing.

No way! :naughty:
Each time I try to go to a full swing in an attempt to reclaim more yardage or to hit it farther, everything messes up and I look like I do my old swing (even if I FEEL I am still interrupting the backstroke :confused1).

I tried to include extensor action into this "Lag Swing" but it doesn't seem to help on this point.

Do you have any clue how I could fill the gap between this 1/3 stroke feeling (and result) with a full stroke feeling without messing everything up?

One more thought about the "Lag Swing":
It feels a bit "wristy" which seems far away to the TGM basics!
Is it a normal feeling or should I have frozen wrists?

Ah, one more question for you Luke: What clues make you say I'm Swinging on the Lag sequence, because by interrupting the backstroke the way I explained I thought it was like using Axe Handle procedure?

Thanks for your help I'm getting a bit struck and confused :eyes: !

Quarter Turn Rotation
 

Per 10-11-03, "Remember, with Swinging, Pressure Point #3 must have a Feel of being rotated a quarter turn at The Top with Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A)....

That is - if left in "Top-of-the Clubshaft" position it becomes a Weak Single Action Grip (10-2-A) and the interchangeable equivalent to 10-2-C for Swingers."

Hope that answers your query.

Here's a picture of me l-a-g-g-i-n-g...:)

In the new swing sequence you do not have a picture right at impact. How can you judge it to be better without this most important frame. It's like most swing sequences in golf magazines, they rarely show impact due mostly to slow shutter speeds cameras.

"wristy feelings"
 

"One more thought about the "Lag Swing":
It feels a bit "wristy" which seems far away to the TGM basics!
Is it a normal feeling or should I have frozen wrists?"

Yodeli - your feeling of wristy-ness are due to the wrists acting as free hinges - allowing you to experience the inertial forces during transition. If you have previously been using forearm muscles to cast from the top then your wrists will have felt "strong" but wrong!

Maybe what you are feeling is some increased wrist cock on transition to downswing - ie. float loading - but this is perfect way of learning lag sensation in pp3.

I think that when you focus on your right index finger sensation at transition - when you feel most wristy - you will notice that lag sensation is felt - as Comdpa says - on top of the shaft And nearer the Metacarpophalangeal joint of your index finger.

Yodas / 6b 's latest video about lag goes into this in perfect detail- great close up of yoda's pp3 at "end" versus "top". So easy to understand - AND it clears up 7-3 loading stuff too - ie. where should the right forearm be at top and end.

Get your pivot to do whatever it needs to do to hold that sensation as long into downswing and you will look like Comdpa, Sergio, Hogan, Yoda...

Lag Master!
 

Yes, I understand the concept; I must now learn to translate this into feelings. Also, seeing Yoda's video (PressurePoint3-WhereAreYou) on the same subject was very helpful :thumleft:!

You have a hell of a lag'o death Comdpa!!!
Very impressive!
Be careful not to rip-off your right ear :)!

Seriously, I find the position of your right elbow to your side quite interesting because from there it clearly shows that you only need to uncock the right forearm to be in perfect impact conditions.

Interestingly enough, in my old swing my right elbow was always away from my left side (and it was impossible to force it in the right slot).
Now, if you compare to the Lag Swing, IT'S MAGICALLY TUCKED TO MY SIDE!!!

I discovered that by doing the Lag procedure I covered in a previous post it MAGICALLY solved a few flaws I never managed to get rid off:
- Right elbow is tucked to my side
- No more overswinging
- Left arm straight at all times
- Better weight transfer
- Wide takeaway and less inside
And all this without thinking of doing it!

Cool :eyes:!

To be perfectly sure, Comdpa, do you confirm that you did nothing special to get your right elbow in this position?
According to you is it the automagic result of your lagging motion?

Greetings, Lag Master :notworthy!

The missing frame
 

You are right, the frame is missing. However I am pretty sure it looks better at impact.
Here's why:

If you compare frame 9 of the "Classic Swing" and frame 8 of the "Lag Swing" you can see the difference in the position of the hands: they both are in front of my right leg...
But, and to me it's a big difference, while in the "Classic Swing" the clubhead is striking the ball and the right wrist is straight (argh!), at this same moment in the "Lag Swing" the clubhead is still lagging behind with right wrist bent.

It means that my hands will be (it's obligatory) PAST THE BALL when the clubhead will strike the ball.

And the stroke feels very different also.

Anyway, I will beg for a better camera for Christmas ;-)!

Damn' you're good!
 

What a revelation! Thanks a lot Golfbulldog to clarify this one!
I was a former pro tennis player who loved to kill the ball! And as such I certainly kept the bad habit to rely on stiffness and force instead of letting the motion flow.

Yes, bingo again! This is EXACTLY my feeling.
Pleased to link it to float loading (received the Yellow book last week and still learning!)

Yes, I can feel that.
Something remains unclear: is there something special to do to re-rotate PP3 during the downswing (10-11-0-3 and also mentioned by Yoda on the video)?

You guys are good :thumright!
What a pleasure and thanks again for all the top quality information.

Maximum Trigger Delay...
 

If you have the book, reference 6-B-2/3/4 C.

Yodeli, take all my advice with small amount of caution - i am only learning student like yourself . Comdpa and others can "walk the walk" as well as "talk the talk"!

My journey into the valley of sustained lag has begun recently and i am heading towards Sergioville! Sensations in my pp3 are new and exciting but results are erratic at the moment.

If we are travelling similar road and at a similar stage i believe that the next step is DIRECTING that PP3 thrust. This is something that seems to be working for me at the moment.

The sensation i need to feel is more pp3 DOWN than i ever thought was natural... maybe try that for you - can't do any harm... remember

6-E-2. THE AIMING POINT CONCEPT
"... because The Machine deliv¬ers the #3 Pressure Point to Impact Fix Hand Location AT IMPACT with all Delivery Paths, Delivery Lines, Pulley Sizes, etc. because its structure is designed to do just that; ... The Aiming Point replaces the ball so you no longer direct the #3 Pressure Point at the Ball but at he Aiming Point just as if it were the Ball - like an explosion shot from sand....

Three procedures are available:
1. Move the Aiming Point forward or aft of the established Ball location. This Aiming Point procedure seems more easily acquired if introduced as a Feel. At the top of the Backstroke, even at the End (10-21-C), mentally construct a line from the #3 Pressure Point to the Aiming Point. Let a careful Downstroke direct the thrust precisely along this line. Hitting or Swinging, direct the #3 Pressure Point strongly downward, per 1-L-9, 1-L-10, 2-J-3 and 6-C-2-A, to ensure the "Downward" element of Three Dimensional Impact (2-C-0). That is: TRY TO DRIVE THE BALL INTO THE GROUND, NOT INTO THE AIR. If you don't KNOW that you hit down, assume that you didn't. The Hands must ALWAYS take one of the Delivery Paths (10-23), but even withh the Circle Path, the Thrust is still a straight-line EFFORT toward the Aiming Point. And even "Tracing" (5-0) must not disrupt it;
...."

BOLD by me, CAPITALISATION by Homer!

I love to read this section about aiming point... i am sure that 6 months ago i just did not get it, even now i am not master of the concept but it is starting to help me forget about the ball and feel more in the hands!

Flv
 

Remember: 2-G "Direction Control means Clubface alignment control." That would be the first imperative.

One Point about the Aiming Point
 

The Aiming Point is the ball itself if ball position changes.

The Aiming Point changes if ball position is constant.

On the first one . . .

The Aiming Point COULD be the CONSTANT . . . . for example . . . let's say that you want your release point feel to be the same for ALL clubs. So the Aiming Point would be approximately the ball for a 5 iron. So then you adjust the Ball Position in relation to that selected Aiming Point for the 5 iron. Adjust the ball BACK for shorter clubs and FORWARD for longer clubs.

Spot on...
 

Spot on there Bucks...

Further clarification can be found in 6-E-2 and 6-E-2 #2.

Els vs Sergio - No Lag vs Lag?
 

I can't resist asking you guys about this one:

Maybe you've seen the Gold Digest's Swing sequences of Sergio and Ernie.

Sergio Quicktime
Ernie Quicktime

When you look a Sergio in slomo, you can see the shaft loading on the downstroke and staying bent until it is waist high.
You can also see how he "Float Loads" with his left wrist cock increasing on transition to downswing (exactly like GolfBulldog said).

But when you look at Ernie, you never ever see a bend in is shaft during the whole swing...and you won't see him float-loading because is left wrist cocking angle stays constant during the transition.

I can't think we could say that Ernie is not loading the clubshaft? So where is the trick?
Is he using xxx-stiff shaft that never bend or what?

One more question with Sergio: I said that his shaft stays bent until it reaches waist high. At this point the shaft seems to loose its bent and even "bounces back".
Does it mean that Sergio has lost his LAG pressure too early? :scratch:

good questions...
 

Good questions going unanswered... usually means difficult to answer!

I am not sure why Ernie's shaft does not bend like Sergios. It probably relates to the timing of maximum stress of shaft - very abrupt loading versus more gradual loading. And also maybe ... the shaft bend profile of the shaft ....? not sure.

Going back to your own LAG problems... I think that delivery path is a good place for you to visit. Experiment with the path the hands take from end/top to impact.

Did you see the youtube clip of Martin Hall on TGC ( see the thread above ( in lounge i think) - KOC posted it.

I played around with a metal ring ( curtain hanging ring) moving up and down the clubshaft or...

Make one of those ball -bearing in the shaft things and see what happens when you take your normal swing - i bet the click is PRE impact. Now during your normal swing feel where your hands are going during downswing...

Now repeat the process but really feel that the hands travel straight towards aiming point( or ball) - this seems to get my ball bearing clicking right on impact...

I am experimenting myself with this ... but it seems to work. Aiming point seems to be a visual equivalent for delivery path??? I may be wrong so experiment and video your self doing it - that way you can't lie to yourself!

The key is that at impact, they both provide 'support' - lag pressure. Ernie is using more of a sweep release vs. the snap of Sergio, a more consistent pattern on Ernies part IMO, easier to control distance in my experience. Ernie is 'lengthening the shaft' - sending force straight down the shaft towards both arms straight.

Re: the lag pressure/shaft motion - yes, sergio has lost his lag pressure or is in the process of doing so, because his shaft is probably not quite the right fit, and/or his aiming point or transition ratio may be off. The clubhead is seeking out its 'in line' relationship to the forces acting on it, which is not, as in Ernies case, straight down the shaft.

The reason the shaft unbends is the same reason hogans shaft unbent because he is done accelerating the club from here on through he is basically along for the ride or at least not adding any more speed to the shot. The law of the flail will continue to accellerate the club to a higher speed but his hands can only get him into a good impact position from here.

The reason sergio bends the club more is because of his right elbow getting to his side sooner so he can get more of a straight line delivery path wich gives more of that lag look