Clearing the fog on the #3 pressure point and the definition of "AFT"
 

Question for lynn the inside aft quadrant in tgm refers to the corner of the ball if spit into 4 parts that is on the back towards you correct. Where is the aft of the shaft? Is homer saying the back of shaft or 45 degree postion if the top is 0 and the back is 90 degrees. I ask this because in a strong single action grip the left thumb and the #3 pressure point are said to be on the aft of the shaft if you look at the pics the left thumb is definately not on the back or 90 of the shaft it is on the 45 line. I ask this because i always thought of the number 3 pressure point as the fleshy pad on the longest part of your index finger. But homer says it is the first joint of the index finger. So when he says first joint does he mean the base of the index finger because that is a joint.

The problem arises in the understanding now for me because if the pressure point is at the base of the index finger and it was on the back of the shaft or 90 that would be a pretty strong right hand grip wich is not what he shows in the photos. If he is talking about the first joint of the finger being the knuckle in the middle of your index finger then if ots location was on the back or 90 degree of the shaft it woud be a very weak right hand grip wich again doesnt jive with the photo's. So to me the only answer that seems correct is that the #3 pressure point is the base or first joint of the index finger and its location is on the 45 or "AFT" of shaft wich gives you the right hand grip in the pictures. To me homers book can be like the scriptures you gotta read the context and its gotta comply with other passages no contradictions. I am qouteing from memory so please feel free to call me out on any mistakes, I knw you spent time with Homer so I was curious if he gave you a explanation on this "aft" location. Maybe you have explained as I am saying now before and I just misunderstood or maybe there is some details or anther way to look at it. Please help with clearing the fo for me on this location of the #3 pp.

Bantamben, check out the gallery and click into the free videos. Once there, click into Lynn Brakes categories and scroll down to video lesson, "pressure point #3, where are you."

The #3 pressure point is that fleshy pad deal between the kuckle that connects the finger to the palm and the first kunckle. If you look at the pictures and video of Hogan putting his right hand on . . . that's pretty much it. See that video of Hogan at the dudes house in the Carribean or wherever they were. Basically aft of the shaft would be at 3 o'clock. According to the Machine you want to get that pad in a position to support the shaft. I good way to "pressurize" your grip is to put the club in a door frame and simulate impact pusing on the frame/club. . . move your grip around and figure out where you get the most support/load on the shaft. Generally that strong right hand deal gets the pressure point too underneath.

thanks i understand what your saying and that is the way I have always understood it all these years. But reread my post as to why i think it could be different. Homer doesn't say fleshy pad he might have meant that thats why im trying to get clarification. He says first joint of index finger where it touches the shaft.

BB . . . this is one of the finer points in the machine . . . It has to do with loading. The Swinger according to Mr. Kelley loads the shaft longitudinally. This is a big piece of how the pressure point is loaded. The Hitter is basically keeping the pressure on the aft side of the shaft. Where as the swinger particularly the swinger that goes to End vs. Top has the load fall on the knuckle as you describe. So the pressure is actually loaded. According to Mr. Kelley you can leave the pressure on the knuckle or as you come down let it return back to the fleshy pad. So you are correct in your analysis . . . with swinging the loading can change from the pad to the knuckle. So with hitting you are driving the aft portion of the shaft and the loading reflects that but with swinging you are pulling the length of the shaft so the top of the shaft falls on the knuckle (arrow outta the quiver deal).

Using 10-2-B, with Standard Wrist Action, the First Joint of the Index Finger, where it touches the Shaft, is Aligned with the #2 Pressure Point. Swingers Load the #3 Pressure Point on the same line as the Left Wrist Cock (directly opposed to the Secondary Lever). Hitters do not, they Load against (don't shoot me) the Left Hand. Hitters Load against the Fleshy Part of the Index Finger.

If you use maximum #3 Accumulator Angle (in the Left Hand) and Release on the Elbow Plane, then the Pressure is likely to move against the Fleshy part of the Right index finger on the side of the Shaft (Aft Side because of Elbow Location). But, with a Small amount of #3 Accumulator angle and a Turned Shoulder Plane, the Pressure is likely, during Release, to remain against the First Knuckle of the Index Finger where it was Loaded on the Wrist Cock (Elbow Location a between the Belt Buckle and Right Side).

It's very interesting to note, that when using 10-2-B with 10-18-B (Double Wrist Action) that the Loading is against the Fleshy Part of the Right Index Finger. This is correct because the Fleshy part is on the same line as the Double Wrist Cock. Simultaneous Release with a Horizontal Hinge.

So, for a Swinger, the more Bent your Left Wrist at the Top of your Backswing, the more the shaft is against the Fleshy Part.

Power in TGM is predicated on precision. How is it then that, after so long, a thread is still necessary to clear the fog on the #3 pressure point and the definition of "aft”? Couldn’t these points have been resolved long ago by using simple diagrams?

It's supposed to be a Pocket Book. :confused1

Ya know, just toss it in your Golf Bag. On the Sixteenth hole, if you have an issue, merely open the Book to page ?? and, ahhhhh,,,, use that procedure.

Yes. And, Extensor Action should be part of Chapter Six; "Power Package".

The whole darn book should be re-written without changing a single concept or procedure. Color Pictures, Colored Overlays of the Flying Wedges, etc. 600 Pages. 25 bucks. Big deal.

A million Copies will be sold. It would become the standard text book for high school and college. Expanded and including video.

The current Owners can't see further than a Bull in a Cow Barn.

Don't get me started. :BangHead:

Its funny , even in this thread there is misunderstanding. I understand all the concepts you try to explain that is not what i am talking about. Im not taking about where you should feell the pressure point i have listened to many masters classes and been reading the book for 10 years. What i am asking is about the actual location of the #3 pressure point as outlined in the book at address as you put it on the shaft because i am just reading what he says and it seems to be different that what i had learned. Reread my first post as to why i think the pressure point he is talking abut is the base or first joint of the index finger. Thanks for the replys

B can you post the passage or the reference again? Sorry man.

The #3 pressure point, as I understand it, is the fleshy pad between the palm of your hand and the first knuckle joint of the index finger - the metacarpal.

This is (should be?) the only part of that finger in contact with the aft part of the club shaft.

Real quick burner what you are saying is what i wrote, thats what i always thought as well but reread please the first post and to why its seems to me that the yelow book is saying with applying the context that it is not the fleshy pad or first section of your index finger. It just woudnt jive with the grip explanation.

I hear you.
 

Homer's reference, IMHO, to the first joint is to that part of the finger you and I have identified; the proximal phalanx - not the joints either end of it.

Certainly this is where the shaft butts up against Diane's dainty little digit in the book.

Straw Men
 

Grip a straw in your RH index finger (opposite for lefties, of course). Locate it securely in the joint. Regardless of shaft butt diameter or finger length and their obvious implications, that's what Homer was talking about.

The Clubshaft is being driven by an On Plane Force (1-L-#10) -- Centrifugal (Swingers) or Muscular (Hitters) -- that is likewise On Plane and (through Impact) directly BEHIND (and in total support of) the Shaft.

:golfcart2:

Moving around the shaft from the leading edge of the clubface, at how many degrees of arc is the On Plane Force located?

im back for an answer
 

so is the aft of the shaft as outlined in the grip descriotion the back of the shaft or 3 oclock if your looking at the cap of the grip 12 being the side where the clubhead is :golfcart:

What's stopping you?
 

The material was gathered from public sources, elite golfers and their descriptions of their successful swings. Work backwards! Do a concise history of TGM and footnote the hell out of it. After each concept's history compare the editions and their presentations with how you would do it.

Don't beat them, commend them and offer a friendly suggestion or two. You have mad skills! Let the big dog eat!

YBGF

the key is 'on plane'

If you were swinging on a horizontal plane like a baseball bat, then 3 o'clock would be 'aft'

but you are swinging on an angled plane, so 'aft' is basically 45 degrees to the horizontal

the flatter the plane angle, the closer to 3 o'clock, the steeper the plane angle, the closer to noon

try the drill bucket mentioned - put the clubface up against a door/impact bag, and focus on supporting down plane towards a spot in front of the ball

This is the reason typical golf instruction talks about the 'v' pointing to the left shoulder - that is the 45 degree 'support' position for the angled plane

If you were going to smack the left hand against something on the horizontal plane (think frisbee throw), you would hit the 'wall' with the back of the hand

If you were going to smack the left hand against something on a vertcal plane (think karate chop in a vertical plane), you would hit the 'table' with the pinky side of the hand

So in a golf motion, you are basically between these two motions, at 45 degrees - and the v's end up to the left shoulder

somewhere deep in the video collection of lynn/ted there is a clip of me showing this at the OCN gathering from 2004

Take a look at Lynn's avatar/grip - that is the ideal IMO

•The Force to be applied for the movement of the Lever Assemblies is exerted against the Club through Pressure Points and that will directly or indirectly drive the Club through Impact.
•The "On Plane" Pressure Point Thrust of the Power Accumulators translates their Potential Energy into Clubhead "On Plane" Kinetic Energy always at Right Angles to the Clubshaft.
•However Clubhead Lag (Pressure Points 1, 2 and/or 3) deals exclusively with the Sweet Spot Plane (Not the clubshaft) and is always driven directly into Impact at a Point, normally, on the inside aft quadrant of the Ball.

So we have
1.Kinetic Energy always at right angles to the clubshaft (7-11) and
2.Clubhead Lag always driven directly into Impact on the Sweet Spot Plane.(7-11)

Can you tell me please:
Are Kinetic Energy and Clubhead Lag always in alignment?
How do these two interact when the Clubshaft rotates around the Sweet Spot?
Are the Pressure Points always constant to the Sweet Spot plane?

or Daryl
 

you could keep doing your drawings,here on site which i find immensely helpful. When it comes to pp3 just take a photo and upload. YOU have the knowledge to help many, and its appreciated

An iPad App
 

Would make a great iPad app similar in execution to the Martha Stewart Cookie Cookbook (uh oh, losing my macho streetcred here...):crybaby:

whoa, did I say that? It sounds more like 12 pc Bucket than me. :laughing9

AFT of the shaft is difficult to gage cause it depends on how much forward lean you like at impact and how much you like to hit down on the ball
I find that when I look down at my clubface I prefer to have shut looking clubface then I can easily put PP3 where the back of the clubhead is.... then square up my clubface.
Or keep at impact fix

The nonpivot short game is a different story.PP3 is 3oclock with square or open clubface.

It's a lot easier to just get to the top and use the right shoulder to drive PP#3 toward the aiming point . :cheers:

So #*$@ the BS alignments and just focus PP#3 to aim pt. ? That's what I been doing and it would work fine if all the fairways and greens were 50 yds wide.

Thanks?

Bumpy

#*$@ing the BS alignments isn't recommended. :naughty: You could trace the plane line with PP#3, putting the LFW on the Turned Shoulder Plane as you swing to the top.

Its only recently that I can comprehend this post.

Your statement :Release on the Elbow Plane, then the Pressure is likely to move against the Fleshy part of the Right index finger on the side of the Shaft (Aft Side because of Elbow Location).

I can now feel this in my swing, it is very cool. I always wondered why I could not feel this but recently a key alignment has been fixed and the pressure on #3 increased dramatically and immediately.

Aft simply means on the back of, inside means the part of the ball closest to the players feet, the goal is an 'inside-out' impact although it is not an inside out plane, but the ball is to be struck before low point, the club still traveling down and out towards low point through impact. Set your flat left wrist and clubface and put the #3 pp on the aft side of the shaft perpendicular to the line of the left wrist cock giving you a strong single action grip and the flying wedges. The plane o te left wrist cock perpendicular to the line of the right wrist bend.
Please don't attempt to re-write the book especially if it's 600 pages. The only simplification of the book is the authorized instructor. The #3pp IS the first fleshy pad of the index finger.

Ok agreed, if that part of the finger touches the aft but can you still get the first knuckle on the Top when you do that?

At the risk of seeming overly precise :

6-C-1 PRESSURE POINTS. Homer says "first joint of the Right Hand index finger where it touches the Clubshaft". See 10-11-0-3 PRESSURE POINT #3 where he talks about the swinger loading the first knuckle of the forefinger , the Rotated Lag Pressure Point. 6-H-O IMPERATIVES , E. Hitting lists Fixed Lag Pressure Point while F. Swinging lists Rotating Lag Pressure Point.

Small point maybe but it can really change a Swingers Lag Loading , wrist conditions during cocking , direction of loading etc if the right hand is not attached to the Top of the handle . No lag pressure sensor to load against , throw against , no sensor for drag loading down either.

This grip below, what Lynn calls the "question mark right index finger" with the knuckle on Top and the first joint on the Aft , will scare the heck out of slicer but its got good reason to look like this in terms of lag pressure and its Rotation. Rotation from knuckle to first joint.....an area that spans the pad yes but its not fixed in one spot on the pad for the Drag Loader who then accelerates Radially.

Interestingly lag pressure at the #3 "pad" , ( associated with Radial Acceleration) was the last thing Hogan talked about in the Coleman video. He called it the "pad" too.

Sorry I've really got into loading that knuckle at Top. It fixes off plane loading , cocking automatically.

Don't overthink this, this is very basic. Don't get confused by the words rotated or swinging or hitting, the question was regarding the pressure points location not it's action. For most a strong single action grip is by far the best choice and is mandatory in homers basic motion acquired motion and total motion curriculums. If you go to any tour event one thing that will stand out with nearly all their swings is their trigger finger grip with the first fleshy pad of the right index finger (pressure sensing pad) on the back of the shaft.

You should see the bronze casts done of the grips of memorable winners of the Open that are displayed at the R&A museum in St Andrews. Trigger fingers all.

The pressure point does Rotate though for the Drag Loader . He or she does load the knuckle at the base of the index finger during Drag Loading, Startdown, Longitudinal Acceleration ...assuming thats what attaches to the top of the handle. Then it Rotates to the first joint or pad (if that whats attached to the aft) during Radial Acceleration.

The Drive Loader just employs the first joint or the pad if you want . Ted hits but drag loads instead of drive loads most often so he's loading the knuckle in STartdown then Drives hard with a Right Arm Throw during Radial Acceleration.

Where in the world is #3PP?
 

Just my thoughts.

The location and/or movement "feel" of #3, is related to hinge type. Because the #3 "senses" the shaft on the angled plane but the back of the left hand (and therefore the grip unless you asjust your grip during the swing) maintains its relationship to the associated hinge. Therefore, only with angled hinging will #3 remain in one "feel" location, behind the shaft, because the clubface retains its relationship to the angled plane.
Which leads to why angled hinging is "best" for hitting and Horizontal hinging is best for swinging, but thats another story.

HB "thinking" again

At address the location of the #3 pp for hitting or swinging using a strong single action grip is the same, on the back of the shaft, perpendicular to the line of the wrist cock this doesn't mean it's going to be exactly at any angle it depends on your left hand impact location. The action of the #3 pp differs from swinger to hitter but both are in the same location at address. the violinist also uses the number three pressure point as he senses the strings angle and pressures.

It'll be located at the lowest point of contact between hands and club , aft of the direction in which the club is travelling. It senses inertia. And is located at the top of the LCOG, the Sweetspot Plane in other words . If you gripped the club cross handed, during Radial Acceleration it'd be located somewhere on inside of the tip of the left index finger.

During a Lagging Takeaway you sense the Lag at the lowest point of contact between the inside of the right hands index finger or thumb and the fore (as opposed to aft) of the handle.... a reverse #3 is you will. The fore of the handle is now aft of the direction in which the handle is moving in Startup... If you know what I mean. Dang .

Pressure Point Video Coming From Ocean Reef
 

I'm at Ocean Reef Club in Key Largo, Florida, these next two days leading an instructional event for their members. I'll ask Brett Jones, their Director of Instruction, to point a video camera at me for a few minutes tomorrow and see if I can help "clear the fog". Stay tuned!

:golfcart2:

Pretty good video here!
 

Pressure point # 3, where are you?

http://youtu.be/GjvxevgmwJ4

Half Days at Ocean Reef
 

Shot the 'pressure point' video late this PM. Five minutes of fun coming your way as soon as I can get it downloaded (to my laptop) and uploaded to the site.

Meanwhile, left the tee at 7 PM after the 7 AM breakfast. Same schedule tomorrow.

Daylight . . . Dark.

Daylight . . . Dark.

Gotta luv it!

:golfcart2:

There is no substitute for passion.
I am glad for you, Yoda.

Foggy
 

BB,I do understand what you are saying,(I think)you would have a far deeper understanding of Homers works than me,I have only had it a couple of years.
In regard to #3,I got into the book a bit deeper than my usual "quick read"and came across 7-11,in the 7th edition,the 3rd paragraph page 104,where he spoke of the "on plane"pressure point thrust of the power accs translates the potential energy into clubhead "on plane " kinetic energy------always at right angles to the shaft,and a bit further on it relates to the sweetspot plane.

Does that fall more in line with inside quadrant of ball in relation to #3 pp on shaft?
:pray: