#2 Accumulator power .. How do U use it?
 

Please discuss #2 release with:
Added #2 down plane uncocking muscle..
coordination per 12-3-0;21 and 22
True velocity accumulator..
constraints on rhythm of other components, right forearm, #3 release speed, shoulder acceleration etc.
Point being. Many, many discussions on how to push #3 but very little discussion on how to apply #2 to obtain and meter club head velocity.

Hey Bear

Id think its in there. Hard to piece together maybe but were the "rubber meets the road" in a diagnostic and application manner. The primary tools of the trade for a TGM playa.

Have you checked out The Throws? Trigger Types 10-20. This was Homers last revelation. There are options of course. Beautiful, beautiful options that for me in my swing anyways define the difference between Hitting and Swinging, Pushing or Pulling. Each throw employing a particular pressure point, which pressure point needing to be loaded in an appropriate manner. #3 pp has two different positions, knuckle and first joint of the index finger, one on the top of the shaft along the Plane of the LAFW, one of the aft along the Plane of the RFFW. Its a system type deal, that requires analysis and careful programming of complimentary components.

You mention "added #2 down plane uncocking muscle". That is a Throw to my mind, Non Automatic even given "muscle". The fact that you mention "down plane" implies a Sequenced Release, Swinging, Drag Loading therefor the Loading would be at the #3 in the Knuckle, on Top of the Shaft. So the likely Throw is the Left Hand Throw. See 10-20-3. And Yoda's related Video below.

Lynn puts some special emphasis on the hammering action in this Left Hand "Throw" or Release Trigger. Its a shock and a great relief to some that you can fire something and hard without all hell breaking loose. Just make sure you follow directions, alignments. It will add some zing to the shots and often, despite the fact it can be a non automatic and very intentional firing, it will show a later Release Point than is normal on video. Weird but nice.

That would be the common Throw Id say given your parameters. There are others and room for unlisted variations too. Homer was pretty keen on how good golfers Triggered their Releases and was all ears when it came to new ones apparently. He may agree or he may not as to its usefulness Id imagine.

You mention "pushing #3". Does Homer say to push against #3 somewhere? I keep hearing this, maybe Im missing something. Again. If its a direct push and if its on the aft of the shaft at the first joint, its throwaway isnt it? A Primary Lever and Rhythm breaker. Something we all struggle with. Making pressure points 1,2, 4 direct drive and 3 at the first joint indirect, passive only sensing the lagging condition of the clubhead. Lag Pressure.

On plane uncocking of #2 , does not break the Rhythm as the Club Head , the Hands, the Left Arm , the entire primary lever travel at the same RPMs like different points on a spoke. The LAFW is intact.

You mention 12-3, 21, 22. Nice question. Id say you have to prepare to roll in the manner planned, per your desired component combinations: loading , pressure points, throws , accumulators, release swivel, hinge action, finish swivel etc. EAch Hinge Action having a different Roll feel, the snap release horizontal hingers amongst us probably feeling like the swing is one big swivel maybe. Plane probably influences the feel the player has, the low plane , elbow plane guys having more of a feel for body rotation through the ball and roll power from the #3 accumulator maybe. Its hard to talk about the "feels" people have and as an aside I think we all tend to mistake some of our feels for actual method or components instead of vice versa. Seek out alignments instead of feels , they arent nearly as fickle, fleeting or ill defined. So at Top prepare to execute the appropriate delivery line, roll with the learned and confirmed on a daily basis by a FEEL that complies with the correct alignments given your desired Pattern. Hows that mouth full? Learn mechanically play by feel. The mechanics creating the feel.

Here is the Yoda video where he's discussing a Left Hand Throw to my mind anyways. Non automatic or "active" if you will, Throwing or hammering Down. With the Left Palm turned to the Inclined Plane this purely vertical uncocking of the left hand wrist cock will be travelling down the Inclined Plane. Also, when he refers to unwanted Horizontal motion in the Left hand.......consider that as a loss of Rhythm or Rhythm breaker where the club head is now traveling at a faster RPM than the Hands or Left Shoulder. Loss of the LAFW plane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVws0CQqTDc

I am interest in #2 application.
 

I only said there is MUCH discussion on pushing #3 NOT that I think it should be pushed. I am ONLY interested in APPLICATION of #2, That would be the last 3 fingers on the left hand. It's application programming AT THE TOP. Its ability to "get the #3 moving through impact ( because there is a very strong alignment force on the clubface) . The need to meeter it out and roll to vertical at the correct time (because if U miss the hands come out to high) and have #2 residual to use between roll and finish an how it can change pace, 6-p-0, and if #2 is "muscled" the right forearm must be quicker and the #3 pressure may actualy decrease because the RPM has increased. These are all feel properties that WILL change with a conscious effort to use #2 to obtain velocity. I am interested in the input from those who, apply pressures to release #2 and not as I suspect, most just "let it happen by CF". This, #2, is a very UNDERDISCUSSED topic. As an example question. #2 may uncock on plane but once the swivel to vertical takes place uncocking then becomes below plane and and must be balanced? Or a bent plane line. It is one thing to perform the motion correctly. It is at another level to "HIT THE BALL HARD". And with a apparent lack of effort.

I use a combination of pp#1 and pp#3 to time the release and to tune the degree of overlap between Acc#2 and #3 release.

I use pp#1 because I want to: Down stroke loading, timing and shot making. I use pp#3 because I can't avoid using it if I use pp#1. I driveload, but I prefer to let CF release accumulator #2 to the largest extent possible.

Hmm... maybe I should try to increase the overlapping grip with one more finger? That should enable pp#1 increase and pp#3 reduction shouldn't it?

Yes - and I don't do anything actively with pp#2 - except for what the subconcious will do to help me get the club correctly through the ball when something somewhere in the stroke is less than 100% OK.

K. Your 2's and 3 's.............even though you said "last three fingers" Im thinking you mean #2 Accumulator and #3 Pressure Point? Is that right?

When swinging I sometimes employ a Non Automatic, Left Hand Throw 10-20- somethingerother. I do like it. A lot. When Lynn first showed it to me I was like "why the heck didnt you show me this a year ago". I hammer it hard but On Plane. To do this , the Left Hand must be turned to the Inclined Plane. Swiveling the Left Hand off the Inclined Plane, Swivels the RFFW onto Plane right? Giving you an earlier Sweep Release with a non sequential , overlapping Sequence to boot. #2 and #3 together, again.

The Left Hand Throw, when "muscled" as you say,is a Non Automatic, "active", intentional hammering but will not take the club shaft under plane (point in side the plane line) after you swivel, I dont think. Not from what I seen in my own version of that operation. Im a Sweep Releaser despite my best efforts. The RFFW , the #3 pp at the first joint, is now on plane, directing , driving, if only passively for Swingers but still driving. Also the clubhead's orbit is "Resultant" of different forces with divergent vectors. See diagram 2-C-1 and 2-N-1. The Hammering though now not on plane has given way to the On Plane RFFW .

Its an interesting intellectual question or exercise but Id say if you're interested in a Non Automatic , Triggering of the #2 accumulator , On Plane ............just Hammer the thing but with your Left Wrist Turned to Plane. It will get you all the Down and therefore all the way OUt. Two dimensions of Three Dimensional Impact. In this regard Homer said that most people, most pros even dont get the job done as fully as possible. I find this hammering this Left Wrist Throw to be the best solution to this problem.

When I first saw Lynn hitting balls on the range at Orange County National I was befuddled. I asked my brother who was along riding shot gun that day; "Whats he doing?" "What is his secret to that explosive impact?". "He doesnt look like he's swinging harder or anything" . The Judge replied: "He hits down so HARD". Which in hind sight kind of sums it up Id say.

Hammering
 

OB yes that is precisely what I was looking for. "Hammering" useing #2 which is the last three fingers on the left (hammer hand) DOWN plane. Not relying on only CF to start to uncock the left wrist (accumulator #2) in sequence. this, for me , does two things. It speeds up the motion and therefore makes #3 ZIP faster than any attempt at increasing #3 velocity with #3 pressure could dream of. I need a lot of #4 remaining or pivot will not get to where the hands expect it. About 2 years ago I tried to get this same "action" by "fanning with effort" the right forearm and was hitting spectacular shots that day. BUT I really hurt my right elbow. By "hammering" I also get/need a much faster right forearm fanning. Why has this all come back- well it is always in my noggin just never hatching? I have aid to myself many times when I read Hogan say at about that point. "Hit it hard now..." and when I see an interview with Fred Couples and he said that when he gets to release he "Hits it hard...” I am becoming convinced that THIS HAMMERING is the magic start to hit it hard. Last weekend we watched "Camilo Villegas" although he does have a few non recommended moves the one notable point is that he has a VERY short backstroke and a slow star down but when he gets down to the hitting zone the clubface has real ZIP.
He is swinging and the power is coming from his Popeye forearms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN-GA8CUCy0

Mind you, I would still like to hit like George Bayer but something tells me understanding the proper application and pace #2 can create is worthwhile. That is why I am seeking the best experience testimony I can find.

Build it from ground up
 

I haven't seen Yoda in person, but his ball striking looks very very good to my eye. I will never look as good and the more I try to copy him the worse my ball striking gets.

I don't believe in forcing an early release of the peripheral parts of the golf stroke. Per HK you don'e want anything above to catch up with anything below before the ball has gone. Drive the feet, drive the hips, drive the shoulders, drive the arms. If the ball hasn't gone by then you can try do drive the club as well but it will not make a big difference IMO.

I've tried a lot of things lately. And quite a few others a few years ago. What it boils down to me is to maximize the pivot thrust. With differnt swings, as long as I get the geometry right, the swing speed basically remains the same. One of the things that differs is thrust through the ball. Another differentiator is the stability.

Forcing a release of the club will slow down your hands. Forcing a release of the arms will slow down your pivot. I think you should build things from ground up, and first do as much as you can with the pivot - then with the arms and then fire the club.

With a slight modification for hitters: You are allowed to do peripheral activities as long as they don't override the central movements.

Personally I'm convinced that the best way to create a powerful release of accumulator #2 is to use everything you've got to charge it during the down stroke. When CF takes over you can try to add a little extra. I don'd believe in hammering the hand and arms down the inclined plane as an active move because you have to slow down your pivot to do it. But I believe it may be a good teaching device to get rid of the steering mentality.

Bear.

Your sore right elbow......... is a probable sign of Right ARm Swinging. A very good method but susceptible to this problem. You dont push a car with your right arm fanned, reckoned Homer. It puts too much stress at the elbow. Like a baseball pitcher maybe. I dont know, Im Canadian. Hmm well Fergie Jenkins was Canadi........a forget about it. Ask me about hockey and head shots, that I know first hand about.

You mention having a lot of #4, agreed. It makes total sense. For this Swingers Left Hand Throw procedure we are talking about, Drag Loading is a likely part of the Pattern. Ground up, 6-M-1. Pivot Power. Loading the knuckle. The Pivot takes the intact Power Package to its Release Point. Then you Trigger Release via a Throw .....of some sort. The later the better for the Swinger seeking distance.

Id venture that when you were Right Arm Swinging , assuming you were, you got a lot of the OUT normally supplied by the Pivot, via the Right Arm. In the absence of the Right Arm Swing, you'd need more Pivot. Hence your feel for the need of more #4 pressure, maybe. The Hitter and the Right ARm swinger dont need #4, Pivot like the Swinger does, they get the CF like Throwout elsewhere, most often. Not wanting to be accused of generalizing.

Im sort of guessing at all of this, but hopefully this line of thinking resonates. In short, and as you obviously know, its a system.

Bear, the other possibility is that I'm making all of this up......................which could be also be true. My grandmother was Irish after all.

Not made up at all O.B. Here is what Homer said in 7-19 of the 6th edition:

What am I doing...?
 

At the risk of hijacking my own thread. The “experiment “ I was working with on the days I “tweeked” my elbow was INCREASING EFFECTIVE MASS, 2-E, 2-M-1, 2-M-2, 2-M-3. ( adding #1 to an elbow that is in front and pitching) [ 4 barrel swing] . I want that wet mop feel and at the same time I do not want ANY deceleration, OF ANYTHING through impact I want acceleration of EVERYTHING THROUGH to follow through. Did you ever see Ted Williams or Mickey Mantle break the handle off their bat just by swing force not by hitting the ball? (for you hockey guys that would be BH or GH breaking their stick before they get to the puck on a slap shot) Well,I have, And, I want to break the shaft without contacting anything. I will argue, that as CF increases the radius the club try to “back up” the hands. If I just let it happen everything slows down in spite of the “heavy” (But not what it should be) feelings in the hands. I want it to have mass and maintain velocity. I like Drew’s exercise of learn to throw a club down range BUT I think there are 2 things to look for; 1. Throw in the correct direction and 2. Throw it club head first (Does the club do a helicopter down range or is it an arrow?) I think if this can be done you become “King of the world” So, why let #2 flop around and contribute nothing but motion?
I need to mention. I need to find MAX so I can adjust back to OK.

The Bear

There is a tradeoff between clubhead speed and hand speed in the golf stroke. If I take what you say literally I read that you wish to reduce your clubhead speed to increase your hand speed.

If you go for a snap release it will have a slow down effect on the hands. This is a good thing because it means that a bigger portion of the energy you generate in your down stroke is allocated from your body parts to the club head. This slow down can be fought of course if you're able to keep upp the good work and not just freewheel through the ball.

Homer called it resistance against slowdown and that is probably as good as it gets without killing the clubhead speed.

Personally I want maximum (or very close to maximum) swing speed through the ball. And then I want to add all the thrust I am able to deliver. Successful thrusting possibly gives 10-20 yards extra but only when the swing speed is intact.

[quote=BerntR;71470]There is a tradeoff between clubhead speed and hand speed in the golf stroke. If I take what you say literally I read that you wish to reduce your clubhead speed to increase your hand speed.

If you go for a snap release it will have a slow down effect on the hands. This is a good thing because it means that a bigger portion of the energy you generate in your down stroke is allocated from your body parts to the club head. This slow down can be fought of course if you're able to keep upp the good work and not just freewheel through the ball.

Homer called it resistance against slowdown and that is probably as good as it gets without killing the clubhead speed.
================================================== ===========

I think that may be correct under the conditions that energy within the system is constant . I think BOTH can be increased by adding energy to the system in the same manner as resistance against slowdown is added. Trivial example would be the putt. a. like a pendulum add no energy. b. add mass to resist impact deceration. or c. accelerate through the ball.

The Bear

I wasn't talking about putting and chipping HungryBear,

I was talking about strokes where you want to hit the ball as hard as you can (with some control of course):

I guess I don't understand.
 

I do not understand. why are there tradeoffs? I am missing something. I remember the book talking hand speed vs pulley size and high hand vs. low hands and max hand speed but I always related that section to general mechanical advantage . Is there particular section where homer makes the points I need to understand? Thanks.
The Bear

Really? They could break their bats without hitting anything, including their backs? Thats interesting. Some serious forces in play there. As for the hockey players , ya for sure but for a slap shot you do hit the ice well before the puck and bend the crap out of the shaft in the process prior to impact. I sometimes think in those terms for golf especially for Hitting, bending the shaft against the turf but........for golf you do have to hit the ball before the ground, of course.

Re hand speed, Homer thought each of us had our own maximum speed and no amount of effort could increase it. However I think that more effort typically results in an earlier Release, less that ideal for maximum distance. So in this manner each of us has our own ideal Hand Speed. Which allows for maximum Trigger delay and therefor maximum Clubhead Speed.

So hammer it but remember its a Swingers Release Trigger which for maximum distance must still be Delayed. In a mechanical sense this is saving some lever extension for the ball. The boxer extends his right arm through his target but dances around prior , trying to sneak his right shoulder closer to his opponents head prior to actively extending. Same for golf, you dont want to make contact with the ball with the lever nearing fully extended and so we must get our Right Shoulder close to the ball prior to finally extending. There is also the degrees of rotation of the primary lever vis a vis time consideration for Snap Release, meaning added clubhead speed.

Id say a non automatic Release Trigger form of thrusting can be pretty dang forceful , violent almost, but the timing requirements , slow start down for instance are even more critical than normal. Especially for a Hitter (for whom its often easier to just shorten the backswing). The Swinger can load hard with his Pivot , Drag Loading, ground up 6-M-1 and just keep the left wrist turned to plane prior to Triggering and he's good. In fact if he doenst non auto a Left Wrist Throw he'll get an automatic version when the Hands reach the bottom of their Delivery Path , the small pulley wheel of the Endless Belt Automatic Snap Release. The Hitter really has to sneak that right shoulder down to the ball and then fire. It seems that way for me anyways. The On Plane #2 Angle Trigger, the Thrusting by itself is not Throwaway. Because the Thrusting, Throwing is done against the Pressure Points on the Top of the Shaft as opposed to the aft.

HungryBear,

I don't think you will find the answer to your last question in the yellow book. You will find it in basic physics and mechanics. It is about conservation of energy. Energy is redistributed from your body to the clubhead during the release. Everything but the club will be slowed down by this redistribution. The moving mass of your body is where the energy comes from.

Unless you hold back prior to the release there's no chance that you will be able to thrust and pull hard enough to fully neutralize the slow down effect during the release interval. But keep trying, because the more effort you put in the more speed you will get out of the release. But if you make hand speed your top priority you may end up with a swing without a proper release.

Thanks all
 

Thanks all for help on #2 accumulator application
The Bear

Back shoulder/arm coordination.
 

Hi OB.

If I go very slowly, I can drop my back shoulder on purpose or turn it to the target on purpose. I can also pretend to hold a baseball bat and just cut loose at the ball. Are you saying that while dropping/rotating the back shoulder, you also the fire the right arm on purpose?

I think I get that if I drive my back elbow to my front foot or slide my back hip forward launching everything else. or is that really a swing?

If I imagine an ax handle and plant to chop that tree down with pp 3 as my sharp edge am I doing a shoulder/arm combo to good effect or am I wasting energy?

I am hoping to emulate Yoda's motion on purpose, and make the world safe for democracy through the peace and serenity of contemplation of the dimples. "I see trees of green, red roses too... people shaking hands saying how do you do ?...and I think to myself what a wonderful world." L.Armstrong

These ideas help me dismiss the challenges of my day as I'm sure is the case for all of us.

Patrick:)


:)

Well yes, but...while Release Triggers can be combined the two I think your talking about when grouped together can be problematic for a lot of golfers. Im assuming your talking about the Right ARm pushing on the aft of the shaft, pp#1.

That "firing" of the right arm (Right ARm Throw 10-20-B) while actively rotating the right shoulder (Shoulder Turn Throw 10-20-C) sounds like 4 Barrel Hitting. A complex business. Timing is difficult despite some potential added power. I goof with it, not sure if its for me or not, maybe, still trying to sort out the component changes required. And I havent seen any Remax long drives with it or anything either if your getting all excited about the power thing. I liken it to the time I put a four pack of interlinked fancy carburetors on my Volkswagen Kharmen Ghia. Yah the top end was a little faster but it never ran right at low speeds and required a ton of tweaking. Every time the weather changed I was under the hood adjusting things. I finally went back to the stock single Solex carburetor and got to where I wanted go smoothly.

If on the other hand your Right Shoulder has "motion" only, does not actively "work" or "action" ( Non Automatic Shoulder Turn Throw) you are probably 3 Barrel Hitting. Basically the Right Shoulder sort of stays back and provides the Right ARm something to extend against , off of, like a launching pad. Homer loved this method. Super simple. 12-1-0, Three Accumulator Hitting. In 6-H-O E Imperatives (what to teach your Hands in an effort to educate them) you'll see point 5 Active Right Elbow.

If the Right Arm is passive and extends on its own, with or without a Shoulder Turn Throw, you're Swinging , using CF, the turning power of the Pivot to create the Throw OUt of both arms. Homer liked this one too. 12-2-0. And its normally associated with a Left Wrist Throw per 6-H-O-F point 5 Active Left Wrist (auto or non auto Throw see 7-20)

So hitting is normally associated with an Active Right Elbow (always a non automatic Right ARm Throw) , Swinging with an Active Left Wrist (Auto or Non Auto Left Wrist Throw). Both see the Right Arm straighten..... its an Imperative all on its own, in fact. 6-H-O-C "Take all Strokes to Both Arms Straight". Basically , for me anyways , its the employment of one or other of these two Throws that distinguishes whether Im swinging or hitting. You have to know what Power Accumulators you're loading, the associated Pressure Point combinations, the type of Loading (Drag vs Drive) the appropriate Acceleration (radial, longitudinal) prior to employing a Non Auto Throw . Getting things mis matched is easy to do, so both Homer and Lynn highly recommend starting with 12-1 or 12-2 before customizing. In fact, Homer said he "sweated blood" over them, so dont take them too lightly. If you've purchased the 7th addition you should maybe check out the thread right here that outlines the changes made to the 6th. There is a little hanky panky going on with 12-1 and 2, no. 13 that needs to be straightened out maybe. In the 6th it read "standard shoulder turn" which I prefer.

If you want to look like Lynn, there's a long line forming so you better hurry .......and do check out 12-1 , 12-2 and 12-5 while your waiting. Thats how he did it.

Thanks OB! I cannot do 4 Barrel and would not really want to as I am quite happy with other options.

The super simple 3 Barrell hitting and swinging can both be attractive depending on my daily flexibility.

Active back elbow = hitting. Check Bumping the front hip or driving the back hip laterally or turning the hips = swinging. Check.

I will check out 12-1/2/5. Check!

Thanks! Patrick