recent swings

Nice 3 barrel, turned shoulder plane Swing! I especially like the full, balanced finish - wish mine looked that good. However, the shaft is below horizontal when the hands reach the right thigh in the FO hybrid clip.

Luke Donald vs. Whip
 

My hybrid vs. Luke Donald 3 wood, striking similarities, very similar release point, not all good players employ maximum delay or auto snap, I would say ld would be random sweep

Skip to 1:20 RLX Luke Donald video

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_u...?v=bQaLIyvxZ64

My hybrid
http://youtu.be/KdE_mzROaxU

You're also in other good company - Tom Watson and Padraig Harrington. If your distance is good, you should stick with your random sweep. Congratulations on constructing a fine golfing machine!

Really nice swing Whip. Sounds like you've made some significant changes ..... do you have tape of what you used to look like? Always nice to see before and afters.

Nice action! What kind of misses do you hit? Fat? Thin? Pushes? Pulls? Hooks? Slices?

All of the above Unfortunately

Hah you and everyone else. Whats your cap at? Must be falling fast.

Finally a plus handicap

Not surprised. LOve your Arm Swing, Zone 2. Awesome. How good do you want to get?

Good enough to hold trophies in my hands

Ones with cheques attached?

If so then Id seek out the best possible instructor you can find and buy some ear plugs for all others offering friendly advice. Maybe you can trust a pal who you play with a lot for some friendly little tips on what looks off , but you gotta be careful . You also need to get out of your head to operate at the highest level and that takes training too. Lots of it. The circus juggler is not thinking about the how? The guy wired in , writing code is not thinking how. But he is focused. There's a big difference. Your computer as Homer called it needs to be programed for successful output.

Take care of your mechanics and then move on to what really matters. Some guys never do this, never find the zone except by accident.

"Let the motion make the shot". "The Three Stations" . The computer. You dont/cant steer dandelions...Homers revelation. See Scott Gummers book for more on that. The plane line disappears, the ball disappears its just you , your pressure points, the Arc of Approach and the line of flight of the ball. etc etc . Stevie to Adam Scott...."9 iron fade 146". Adam " how bout 148?". "9 iron fade 146!". Without a Stevie you have to do it yourself. See the ENTIRE shot though the air and let the feel of the motion replicate it. Say it to yourself or to buddies. "I wanna little fade , 146 lightish lag pressure". If you start thinking about how to hold it off or something you've lost the moment. Somedays its easy, some days it aint.

You can take your typical 10 handicap golfer and while getting him to hit balls on the range, say to him at the top of his backswing "fade" or "draw" or "slice" etc and he can do it. Much to his surprise. He'll do with hand manipulation of course since he cant adjust his grip mid swing but he can do it. Easily. But the typical 10 cap by him self on the course tries to hit straight shots and misses wildly. Why? I believe a golfer should start shaping shots before they think they are ready to do so. Both ways. High and Low too. Like call shot in pool. Navigate the hole with a thought to your leave , like shape in pool. Plan two shots ahead or three and give yourself your desired leave for the kill shot. Pot the black.

In the end this is playing golf, the other stuff , thinking mechanics is practicing golf. You can do both on the course. Some guys never stop practicing no matter where they are, in tournaments even. In their own minds they're never quite ready to let go of it. The time to let go of it was yesterday. George Knudson, "you've got to give up control to gain control". Lag Pressure will be there , its like your best friend. Actually it likes it when you let go, sorta perks up a bit, like an old dog sensing he's about to go for a walk.

In short Id say hammer your mechanics but with a thought to getting past them and PLAYING the game. This is where the highest level of execution is for all of us as we approach our full potential.


PS How bout this one. " A fudge thats it, I quit, gonna walk in, frig it. But first Ill just take one more swing at this freaking thing. What the? Thats my best shot today Sammy!" What changed for this guy? Whats the lesson? Its a hackers thing but it applies to all of us, from Tiger on down. Bobby Jones wrote about this phenomena. How to use it.

OB, your fourth on the all-time number of posts list. Is there really anything to do in Canada? I would hope the answer would be NO, otherwise we'd need to delve into psychological issues.:confused1

Upon viewing the video of your swings, without the need for slo-mo, I noticed that you don't use Hinging. Perhaps your instructor can demonstrate the difference.

For the most part the ball goes at the target I used to hit a draw Now do not have much curve either way, I miss shots but I don't really have a particularly common miss right now, could you please explain why you don't see a hinge. In these swings I was attemptig to execute a manipulated hands swing but may have come out more as a swivel from the hands rather than a hinge from the shoulder and pivot, I still have many things to work on in zones 1 2 and 3

Hah! I still get a laugh outa that one, I dont care what D says.

Cant believe you have time to post when you're in Hillcrest on a friday night! Its rude to post when your mouth is full dude.


Mikey , I know that you know that I know what procedure gives one an arc of approach to the arc of approach. But it might be that we're both totally nuts too. Ever thought about that one? Then there's D who is nuts, no doubt about it. Uh ive met the man. Making at least three of us. Well Homer was kinda weird too......T squared.....Bennie D.......uh oh. We're trending here.

I see that you're 1/2 set up for Hands Manipulated Swinging. You are playing the Ball a few inches back up-plane from Low Point, that's 1/2, but you haven't adjusted enough Hook Face for a HMS, that would be the other 1/2. So, if you were "Hinging", you'd be hitting the Ball out to Right Field. But, I don't need to see where the Ball goes to come to this conclusion. I can see that your Clubhead and Hands don't have the same RPM. The difference between Swiveling and Hinging is that with Hinging, the Clubhead and Hands travel at the same RPM.

I can see that your right Forearm enters Release on the correct Angle of Approach. Good stuff, really. But....Your Brain knows that the Ball will go to Right Field unless you Spin your Hands. That's where/When and Why you're losing the RPM. If you were to extend the Club in your Left Hand as far as your Left Elbow, you would see that the Shaft is Rotating independent of the Left Arm Flying Wedge.

Solution: Keep the Ball Location at 3" behind Low Point but add about 5-10-15? degrees (experiment) of Hook Face, then don't spin the Hands.

Just for every one else, so we all understand this the same way, HK differentiated between "True Swinging" and "Hands Manipulated Swinging". "True Swingers" are Limited to Locating/Playing the Ball so that Separation occurs at Low Point. "Hands Manipulated" Swingers can Play the Ball from Any Location aft and up the Orbit from Low Point because they will adjust "Hook Face" to Square the Clubface for Separation (CF won't help). Both use the Right Forearm Angle of Approach Procedure and if a "Hands Manipulated Swinger" Plays the Ball so that Separation occurs at Low Point, then he is no longer manipulating Clubface Alignments. He is "True Swinging".

I just want you to know that some day, when I'm famous for my "Homer Kelley Concepts Video's", that your name is mentioned in the Credits. "Mike O" is not.

Hang on......

A true swinger does not locate the ball so separation occurs at low point. centrifugal force pulls objects in line and on plane with their center of gravity wether or not they were originally in line or on plane. set the golf club on the table and you will see the toe hang, this is the condition that cf seeks at low point. A true swinger locates the ball to accomodate this. Separation does not occur at low point for a true swinger. the player cannot adjust the amount of hook face built in, closing the club face is not adjusting the hook face. A true swinger locates the ball to accommodate the centrifugal force that is acting upon him or her so that the ball separates the club face at right angles to the target line. At low point the club has reached it's in line condition which is closed to the plane line (remember the toe hang, hook face), at separation the club is on it's way to becoming in line hence the naturally produced horizontal hinging and occurs prior to low point if you are relying on cf to square the club face which a true swinger is. Manipulated hands swinger can put the ball wherever because he is controlling the hand motion and therefore controlling the club face motion and can position the club face accordingly to the target line regardless of ball location, he is manually moving the club face via the flat left wrist and is not subject to centrifugal force sending the club head toward it's in line condition. The manipulated hands swinger does not close the club face at address to offset the fact the cf is not helping to close the face, he simply manually executes the horizontal hinge and therefore would still have a slightly open face to allow for the manual closing. He can also manually angled hinge and vertical hinge with corresponding impact alignment adjustments.

The difference between swiveling and hinging is that hinging is during the impact interval and swiveling is a true rotation of the hands by #3 acc. per standard wrist action into its vertical condition to execute its indtended hinge action, and for snap rolling the hands on plane for the finish.

The true angular speed( rpm) of the club head is identical to that of the hands due to the mandatory flat left wrist, I don't believe I am bending the left wrist therefore they are moving at the same Rpms

Forgive me if I messed something I'm tired

OMG, who's teaching you this stuff? Ask him to call me.

However, you are looking in the right place..

In the first sentence, HK say's "none will be an actual “Roll” of the Hands". He means: No-Flash-the-Hands, No-Spinning.

In the Second sentence, HK say's "true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignments by Accumulator #3". He means that the Hands will Roll as a Result of the #3 Accumulator Traveling around the "Pulley".

Also:

1. Anytime you have two sticks Angled together "|_", you have "Hook Face". A Hockey stick has Hook Face, a Baseball Bat does not. A Golf Club has Hook Face and it's easily "Manipulated".
   
2. Hinge Action starts at the "Pulley", not the Impact Interval. The geometry-Alignments of the Power Package for Hinging need to be accommodated before the Hands reach the Pulley.
   
3. The "Mandatory Flat Left Wrist" is only one condition necessary to control the RPM of the Primary Lever. If you Roll the Left Hand, then the RPM of the Clubhead becomes greater than the Left Wrist.

I'm sorry I cannot bite, Hinge action IS exclusively during the impact interval, although it helps to see the differences of the hinges by executing them through a larger range of motion and I understand that you always prepare to do something prior to doing it wether you know it or not. true hinge action is only during the fractions of seconds that the ball is on the club face. The geometry needs to be accommodated for during the address routine In deciding what hinge, curve, direction you are going to use and apply it accordingly to the impact fix alignments. The term hook face is not referring to the L shape of a hockey stick vs. The straight bat, it is referring to the hook face built into the club again it Cannot be adjusted, opening or closing the face is NOT adding or reducing "hook face" perhaps Lynn can explain the hook face further. He says none will be an actual roll of the hands, correct the key here is that the orbiting arms and pivot create the hinge motion the true rotation comes before and after the flat vertical left wrist executes it's intended hinge action.

If you roll the left hand flat you are still maintaining the Rpms at the same rate, how would they not be? Hinging is def something I will be working on and will be trying to avoiding any spinning or erratic use of the hands for sure zones 2 and 3 need more attention for sure

Thank you Daryl. Mike O. is already credited for his contribution to the Gummer book so .......he's not without such honours. He'll be ok with this Im sure. Given some time.

Uh can I review what Im being credited for before you go to print?

Guys the geometry you are discussing warrants a new thread. A thread Ive been waiting for a long time. Hook face, low point vs straight away point, true swinging vs manipulated hands, plane rotation vs grip rotation etc etc its all in the geometry of the circle and can be drawn with pencil and paper.

It could be a little contentious given the similar studies popular today. Launch monitor , trackman, d plane etc. I think there's probably some points of departure , not sure where but Im sure there is. Homer came at it from a geometry perspective, geometry of the circle. Paper and pencil and deduction. Its not the only way today but it was in his time.

Is the circle irrelevant because the clubhead path is really elliptical? No. Its a model that is relevant and further more the point of impact is also a point along the ellipse's circumference where the radius, the left arm and the club (the primary lever) is nearing full extension , making it very circular in form. Fixed center , fixed length of radius giving you a circle. The relevancy of the circle assumption increases as impact nears. You could refine the geometry to show the ellipse and plane shifts unique to each golfer but you dont need to do this to convey a basic understanding of the geometry at hand. The basic understanding necessary to influence a golfer's Intentions. The antithesis of Homers Steering. Namely , the geometry of a Hinge Action of an Angular Motion on an Inclined Plane. Golfs geometry ......hockeys too, field hockey... etc. The instrument employed dictating the geometry. Sam Snead's old croquet putter would imply a change of geometry to non inclined plane.

Start a new thread.

By the way I agree that the amount of hook face is determined by the manufacturer unless you have bent more hook face in or out yourself. You can of course add further grip rotation and effect more of a hooked face and deloft the club........ We need to stick to definitions to discuss this one, I suspect you're both saying the same thing in different ways. The hockey stick thing alone doesnt mandate a hooked face, my driver has a slice face for instance as its designed to sit square fore of low point.

A discussion on Hook face by itself , let alone the entire Geometry would take a few pages. This will be big , but its time has come. Wonder if Yoda will jump in?

Nah. He can follow his own path like so many others. It'll be a longer journey than necessary. Been there.....done that.

Homer wrote the book, the end. No need for another thread, hook face is determined by weight distribution and club shaft attachment angle, every club in the bag has varying amounts of hook face to give it the proper relation to the plane line, this is vaguely discussed in the book and could warrant further explanation. The only other thread on hook face did not produce any accurate explanations, this stuff is very important in having a chance to hit the ball straight.

Just to clarify the true swingers intent....



The hinge action is only during the time that the ball is deforming and reforming on the club face until separation. The fact that In this picture the club face closed only during the impact interval represents a horizontal hinge action, either by manual manipulation or the natural result of centrifugal force striving to achieve the clubs in line condition

Well said OB.
Two points of background clarification.
I told Mr. Gummer verbally that I didn't have an interest in having my name mentioned in his book even though I would help provide some background information/material for his project. Yet, he put me in anyway. Secondly, based on my experience with Mr. Gummer he has character flaws in regards to his integrity that would not warrant any future personal or business association with him - for me.

On a lighter note - Daryl's just upset that I didn't buy him dessert after dinner. Not to mention that anything he would produce is entirely his and as he mentioned earlier - I had no input for him on any Golfing Machine ideas or interpretations.

Meanwhile OB I see you've skipped over my "psychological issues" post - I'll just add "repression" to the list of your "issues"!

Finally, who is this "Whip" cat? Dig up some dirt would you, i'd hate to have to communicate with that tird brain Bucket.

Mike Id like to suggest that it is you that is repressed. I answered the psychological thing in kind, as per the above.

You accusing me of repression can only mean that you Sir are subject to projection (and repression).

Or maybe you just missed it. Or maybe we both are suffering from both?

Whip you got skills and you are actually studying the book. Glad to have you around.

We can talk about this stuff here if you want to , its your thread I suppose.

Homer talked at length about Hooked face in his GSEM classes. Agreed whats written in the book needs to be expanded upon and it is central to his impact geometry theories. So is hand manipulation vs true swinging, grip rotation vs plane line rotation, horizontal vs vertical vs angled. Its a big topic that requires diagrams.

Re Hinge Action: The hinge actions effect on the ball is limited to the impact interval yes, but the left hands relationship to the associated basic plane extends beyond impact in both directions. You dont swivel right up to the moment of contact although it can feel like that.

Imagine the swivel this way: In the Downswing your left hand lies flat to the plane , during hinge action your left hand maintains a perpendicular relationship to one of the three associated basic planes. Between these two precision alignments of the left hand (club face) is the action of the swivel. It swivels the left hand off the inclined plane to its prescribed alignment vis a vis the chosen associated basic plane. Its a bridge if you will , between alignments , between the left wrists lying flat to plane and whatever hinge action is desired. Both fore and aft of impact, in Release Swivel and Finish Swivel. The Swivels length is dependent upon Release Point and Hinge Action...... it can be early and long or late and fast etc etc. It feels like a Roll and it is a Roll but to vArying degrees.

I still am not 100 percent clear on hook face but I do know it is an unalterable result of the clubshaft attachment angle and the club heads weight distribution based on the geometry of the club face and loft and each club has it's own degree of hook face throughout except maybe the putter in order to give the club it's proper relation to the plane line referring to the down and out impact. It seems the 4th edition mentions the bit about attachment angle and weight distribution but not the 5th or 6th. Also The clubs "squared awaay" position is not always an indicator of it's actual position. The clubs leading edge may be square (perpendicular) to the target but when you put a pointer on the face, it may point slightly to the left showing it's true position, most wedges will show this easily although the Dave pelz wedges seem to point straight according with their leading edge. This is the minutia involved and required for ultra precision which is not always feasible or required to play great golf.

I have worked very hard on getting balanced making a proper pivot as homer tells us zone 1 is so important for good golf. This year I'm gonna continue to perfect the pivot and start getting more detailed in zones 2 and 3. Although I have a ton to work on upon re-viewing the hybrid swing FO I would argue that I'm executing a dual horizontal hinge cleanly.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zb_fM_4QW8

Looked at the iron swing you put up on the grass....I thought the face motion looked GREAT....you have a beautiful motion...the only thing I'd consider is more hip turn on the backswing.....you have a swing to covet...nice work!

Thanks for the feedback bucket, Gotta remember to turn the hips! If I make 500 practice motions a night over the next 8 months it will be 120,000 machine calibrations later thats not including hitting balls all day a few times a week and playing. my swing will be ten times as good before the summer if I keep working through the components, the zones, the checklist.

Mechanics into feel
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tADB1u7rYKM&sns=em

Working with The C-Plane and master G.O.L.F. instructor Greg Smith, best golf instruction in Phoenix!

This is indeed a beautiful golf swing......Could you describe what your instructor is advising? I assume the lines are representing the turned shoulder plane and elbow plane.....is the prescription to shift or is this just illustrating "what you do"?

What is your predominate shot shape? It looks like you could easily play cuts....and I would assume your "procedure" is Swinging?

Very nice motion.......just curious as to how you put the components together as you have obviously thought and trained a great deal....how much guidance do you get from your TGM guy Smith right?

Thanks bucket, we are working for a very simple, efficient, repeatable and balanced Three barrel swing. The lines are just there to show EP and TSP I'm a little better on plane during the startup and backstroke now. I tend to hit a draw but mostly straight. We started with the feet and kinda just continue to nail down the feet, hitting tons of shots with feet together hitting shots with bag stands on my feet to stay grounded. Over the last 2 1/2 years with Greg we have learned my tendencies and just continue to work on them, continually refining basically all components with emphasis on zone 1. The prescription is 500 practice motions a night.

Nice! have you ever considered hitting balls into a net too? I did this about 3 years ago monitored the film in doors was able to really ramp up the changes and efficiency.

Whip
 

Swing looks good - but how's it performing- score wise?

Haven't had a chance to play lately because of overseeding here in az. Over the summer I became a plus handicap for the first time I feel like my game is much better already pretty soon here I think I will realistically shoot in the 60s on a regular basis my goal is plus 4 by the end of the summer. Need to get my net setup

That's good - Bucket shoots in the high 60's also

End of summer?
 

?? We have July 4th and winter here. (exageration included)

HB

Yes if it gets any colder he doesn't bother going out. Old joke my apologies.