The Tomasello Tapes -- Chapter Nine / Swinging Vs. Hitting
 

In this final segment of the Series, Tom Tomasello explains and demonstrates the Swinging and Hitting Strokes as he saw them. LBG disagrees with much of what is presented, especially with regards to the Hitting Stroke. Our concerns revolve primarily around teaching Hitting as a Closed Clubface, Punching Procedure that delofts the Club and produces only Low Fades (although in his first explanation, Tommy characterizes the Hit as producing high Fades).

Unfortunately, Tom is not here to answer our questions or to explain his concepts further, Nevertheless, I encourage viewers to think critically and to post their comments and questions. In this manner, the segment's inconsistencies with Hitting as explained in and supported by The Golfing Machine will come to light and be resolved.

In any event, Tommy once again presents his views enthusiastically and with good humor. Click on http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/Video/C...g_Swinging.wmv and enjoy!

Wow! This clip is going to generate posts for the next year. I'm a newbie at all of this , but my first impressions after 1 viewing:

1. He really seems to have a bias towards swinging. Even his slow-motion drills all involve a swinging procedure, not hitting.

2. Refers to hitting as "punch shots" all the time. I just learned hitting from Yoda, and I'm not sure the beautiful straight to slight fades I hit 260 yards with my driver 2 days ago were "punch shots." I wonder if he was trained to "hit" short shots and "swing" long shots?? Was that the training of TGM back then?

3. He also implies that hitting is OK for the "young" and "strong", and states Arnold Palmer's loss of distance was due to staying with a "hitting" procedure. As Yoda can attest, I'm not young (53) and have average strength---but my distance for ALL clubs has increased in the past month.

4. As for the "closed clubface" takeaway, it reminds me of Brian Manzella's twistaway move that he mentions in his Never Slice Again video. That is not what I was taught with the right forearm pickup. It doesn't even feel shut to me. If you take it back shut wouldn't you have to manipulate something on the downswing to keep from smother hooking it??

Anyway, those are the random thoughts of a new guy after 1 viewing. It may generate some controversy, but REALLY glad you put it up Lynn.
Later kids. Bedtime for the old guy---0500 hrs gets here in a hurry at this age. Dr Dave

The Hitting Procedure And Clubhead Speed
 

And one more thing: It is impossible to reconcile the "one Club shorter" message with the recent posts from Ted "Luke the Nuke" Fort and tonight's post by Bagger Lance. Or from Homer Kelley's taped 1982 discussion of two sets of Stroke Sequences in The Search For The Perfect Swing.

Comparing two side-by-side subjects, Homer was able to discern Hitter from Swinger from the slowdown of the Hands in Release. Despite the Release Deceleration inherent in the Hitting procedure (due to the forfeiture of Body Momentum Transfer), the Hitter's Clubhead Speed was still greater than that of the Swinger. He was quick to point out that Hitters do not necessarily hit the Ball further than Swingers. Nevertheless, in this particular instance, that was indeed the case.

Bottom Line: Hitting does not inherently produce a lower Clubhead Speed than Swinging.

I noticed the "10 yard/1 club distance loss" comment as well. Isn't hitting going to produce slightly less distance not because of clubhead speed factors but instead due to hinge action?

Angled hinging has layback and closing, which will mean the clubhead has more loft during the impact interval than horizontal hinging. In addition, there is some 'compression leakage' due to the uncentered motion that angled hinging produces.

You can totally see in this video where Croker got his ideas. Interestingly enough, Croker says to hit but he uses TT's swinging procedure to accomplish this. Maybe his method is a switter method. I really enjoyed this video because Tom makes the swing seem so simple and his enthusiam for golf is infectious. Like I said in the past, I use this method (more Croker) and it works very well for me. It is great to see the source of the ideas. One question, is TT using or trying to demonstate a full sweep release? Thanks

Mike

Hitting
 

Matt,
You're right about the compression leakage for angled hinging - it's a factor. In contrast, the hitter has the advantage of a prestressed clubshaft (resistance to impact deceleration), which the swinger does not have, and so on, and so on, back and forth- pros and cons......

Homer felt that whether hitting or swinging - distance wise they were going to be pretty similar.

Mike O.

I believe you are right DG. And thanks once again for sharing the video. Your original is on it's way home. Let me know if you want my edited version on DVD. I have just one copy...for you.

Bagger

Re: The Hitting Procedure And Clubhead Speed
 

I think Mr. Tomasello was saying that right-armed swinging is longer than hitting. I'm not sure how this could ever be proven.

We would have to take the same golfer and make all variables equal in his hitting vs right-armed swinging motion. If we made all variables equal - clubhead speed, compression, effective mass, etc, etc, then both shots would go the same distance regardless of how the club was brought to the ball.

It could be that Mr. Tomasello didn't have the strength to hit as far as he could swing? I'm sure what he is reporting is what he experienced with both strokes.

I don't understand the science enough to say one procedure is longer than the other. But I have seen hitters who are longer when hitting than they are when swinging and vice versa. Based on what I've seen in others and experienced with my own stroke, I would never be able to say one procedure is inherently longer than the other.

DG,

I understand what you mean by using extensor action. What about the part of the video when TT talks about the uncocking of the left wrist? That seems like it would be a sweep release. I am unclear on this- I have done this in the past and did not have good results. Is TT advocating trying to uncock the left wrist? Thanks

Mike

That is interesting- Croker seems to give TT credit for his ideas, but maybe it is the other way around. They are very similar except that Croker teaches to throw the club at the ball making sure you uncock the left wrist under to ensure that you do not come over the top. TT's idea of trying to unbend the right wrist and hit out at the ball is somewhat similar. Interesting that TT did not talk more about lag. Croker thinks lag is still there when you throw the clubhead at the ball, but if you uncock the wrist wrong, you lose the lag. Thanks again for the awesome vids!

Mike

Hitting and swinging
 

After watching many various dvd's from TGM trained and influenced instructors i am starting to believe that Yoda and Chuck (Ted now too) are close to the only ones that fully recognise just how effective hitting can be for so many golfers. They also seem to understand how to effectively teach it above almost all others as well. Possibly never before has it been treated as such a potentially great asset. Most people they train seem to gravitate toward hitting, and with great success to boot. It seems to be a very simple art when effectively taught and it is most interesting following the many success stories associated with it.


John

OK...here's a question
 

I will try to use an analogy, hopefully it won't be a bad one. This is a serious question and I do not know the answer to it.

In the discussion of which procedure is longer, hitting or swinging, let's assume one thinks that swinging is longer than hitting:

Swinging is like a Porsche and Hitting is like a VW Bug. You take both cars out on a grand prix track and race. You can put the same expert driver in both cars and have him execute perfect driving skills around the track - but the Porsche will always be faster.

I'm wondering if both procedures are like Porsche's? And it's just a matter of applying them in an expert-like fashion?

What do you guys think?

Two Endorsements
 

As a teacher, I have no bias toward Hitting or Swinging. I enthusiastically endorse both and will move the student toward the purest application of either based on what appears to be his natural inclination (unless his personal preference dictates otherwise).

In the past four days, I have taught two PGA TOUR players, the first a Swinger and the second a Hitter. While in some ways their lessons were quite similar, in others they could not have been more different.

Hitting vs Swinging?

Theory in some circles say Swinging is longer.

When Yoda redone me... Since I was caught inbetween, Hitting we started at. Obviously the Student wasn't grasping a few concepts here so we switched to Swinging. Half way through the second session, the light bulb goes off and now Swinging is working, BUT a few adjustiments and Hitting was working.

In fact I actually was Hitting further than Swinging.....

From the best I can tell from observation and study is that Hitting or Swinging success (distance, etc.) really comes down in the end to the Student. If a student can't optimize the downstroke components to maintain rhythm, then more than likely Swinging will take a bigger hit as the club will out race the golfer. For a hitter it will be a weak shot result from what I have experienced. This assumes that there is a reasonable understanding of alignment and component mixture.

I have found the the TT tapes to be instructive, but I think the idea of this is something that everyone can adopt and apply in full is a bit over the top. That is of course if I understand the drive to achieve a 4 barrel swing which seems to be an underlying theme here. I don't think everyone can achieve this with any degree of success vs selecting a less complex arrangement of components and application to match the student.

But I approach the students golf game as what is practical and can measure success based on the student and goals along with effort to be applied.

Thanks for sharing these.

Endorsments and swinging vs hitting
 

I have Eversheds Knowledge video DG and like it a lot. What i was implying is that many TGM certifides and other teach swinging. Doyle, Tommy, Evershed, Schaeffer, Hebron, Johnson, Jacobs etc etc etc. Many have a set theory and teach along these lines. Yoda and Chuck have well and truly opened up the world of hitting as a bonfide pattern if suitable to THAT golfer. Teachers teaching swinging are a dime a dozen so to speak, tho yes, some teach it way better than others. Hitting has come along a LONG way since Yoda and Chuck to a lesser extent have included it in their teachings and given it great credibility of late. Kudo's to them are richly deserved. I have vastly enjoyed the TT DVD, it explains many TGM concepts in excellent ways. Surely tho it is a little rigid. TT dismisses hitting to a large extent and is set in his teachings. Yoda and co have shown that taught and executed properly it is anything but dismissable. I have no doubt TT's teachings will work for many a golfer, and don't mean to demean them. As you continually point out, he has success on the board. I'll also add while i'm going that Lynn is surely one of not many that teaches TGM as Homer wanted it taught. The RF takeaway, the hands controlled pivot, the onplane right forearm etc etc. Evershed makes interesting discussion too, he teaches hands controlled pivot vs Tommy's pivot controlled hands. There's a vast difference right there.


As for swinging vs hitting length, surely it depends on the person and the efficiency of application. That may be why Homer made the distinction of separating the two for different players. Even with perfect application i am sure some would be longer swinging and others hitting.


John

Backstroke options
 

Chuck cleared some fog for me by pointing out that 10-18-C gives the Hitter three options:

1. Let the pivot bring Horizonal Hinging to a normal on plane top position.
2. Let the pivot bring Angled Hinging to a normal on plane top position
3. Hold the wrist Vertical throughout for a true single action wrist position.

Mr. Tomasello stresses #3 while Yoda seems to favor #2. Would that difference affect either trajectory or distance?

I also noticed that Mr. Tomasello seemed to be using Vertical Hinging when talking about the height of some of his Swinging shots. In one of the earlier chapters he mentioned that Horizontal Hinging produced the lowest trajectory of the three Hinging Motions. I wish he'd said more about how Hinging affects the two stroke patterns in this segment. It's certainly an interesting chapter, though.

Many thanks for making the series available!

I believe Mr. Tomasello could have hit those shots sky high if he had moved his aiming point further back.

humble regards,

Bernt

Great Series
 

Thanks again to all those responsible for bringing this series to us.
And thank you especially to DG. Great stuff!!


=D> =D> =D>

Many thanks for the Tomasello series. His interpretation and demonstration of the golf swing made this really enjoyable and informative. Are there plans for anything similar in the future?

Lessons From TGM Pioneers
 

Strav,

We are considering additional Tom Tomasello video supplied to us by our LBG friends. Also, at our request, Mr. Ben Doyle has furnished us with six hours of real-time lesson tee video. Stay tuned!

The "Brian Manzella Twistway" is the single best idea I have ever used in 22 years of teaching.

No matter how much I learn and adjust what I teach (I do EVERY day), I still teach golfers who need TWISTAWAY to twist that damn thing away from them.

I am sure Tommy T had his "gems" and they worked for him an others.

:D

Re: Lessons From TGM Pioneers
 

Thats great. I have noticed that renting Bens teaching session videos is quite popular - at least among thouse who've explored the possibility. (As all of you know already he rents them for 3-month periods). I always wished that it'd be great if his (huge, I suppose) archive would somehow be made available online. This might be a step in that direction. Excellent.

Twisting The Slice Away
 

Brian,

If you could send us a video clip of the Twistaway, I'd love to put it up!

What a site
 

This just keeps getting better and better. First the great TT giving us the goods, and now Brian and Ben! TGM nirvana. I have Ben's excellent tape and have read a lot of Brian's superb instruction and can't wait for more of both :)

Ben's Tapes
 

Has the Ben tape been chosen? hopefully it will be at least one hour of #68 with Bobby Clampett :D