7-2 Grip Types
 

I have a number of questions concerning chapter 7-2. Let's start with this one:

In 2-J-1. IMPACT ALIGNMENTS (CLUBFACE POSTITIONING) it says:

Does that mean that a Swinger should adjust his clubface to the selected Hinge Action at Address by rotating his Plane Line? And that, for Horizontal Hinging, his Plane Line would have to be more open for longer shots and less open for shorter shots?

sections
 

The two sections are unrelated - so don't mix them.

Your section 7-2 quote is talking about changing impact alignments to control draw or fades. The term swingers in that quote should read "True Swingers". Doesn't answer your questions but keeps you on the right track.

Great answer Mike. Par 71, you need to note that HOmer isnt talking about Swingers , generally. He is talking about True Swingers . Those for whom CF alone squares the club face.

Hitters and manipulated Hands Swingers (almost everybody) can make use of Grip Rotation. That is to say for balls played fore or aft of the Straight Away Position, they can rotate the handle in their loosened grip to align the face square to the target line/ plane line (for instance) and then when swinging have the club face return to the ball with the same face angle.

Grip Rotation is not available to the True Swinger , definitionally. A ball played back of straight away will see an open clubface returned to the ball . Pushes and Fades resulting . So under these circumstances if this player , a true swinger wants to re direct the flight of the ball so its not out to the right, he can do so only by rotating his plane .... to the left.

So, re your question above Par 71, Plane LIne Rotation for the True Swinger has more to do with the positioning of the ball than what club is in hand. And while the True Swinger will have a face angle which is open to varying degrees at Fix , to allow for it to be square at separation , this is got via ball positioning through trial and error not plane line rotation.

Re face angle at Fix given a selected Hinge Action and Grip Rotation, here's a mechanical /mental image for the Manipulated Swinger, Hitter golfer playing a ball back in the stance. Imagine the golfer as a machine:

1. You program in a hinge action. Once programmed the Hands always swing through in the same manner. The hands are just clamps etc.

2. Assume you have taken your grip at Fix for a ball played at the straight away position .... You then move the ball back in the stance and with it the left arm and club back .... The club face will now point to the right somewhat! Should point to the right . Your left hand, in fact your entire Primary Lever , left arm and club, has Turned slightly as it moved back in the stance with the ball and in accordance to a Left Hand which remained Vertical (flat level and vertical) to the desired Horizontal Basic Plane given Horizontal Hinging.

3. You then loosen your clamps (hands) and Rotate the Grip ... ie you spin the handle counter clockwise in your loosened grip /clamps to square the face to the desired Fix alignment for straight away initial flight down the (Impact) Plane Line / target line.

What is the desired amount of face squaring? It depends on the club , the ball position etc but the point is that the face must be square to the target line at Separation reasoned Homer not necessarily at Impact. The closing nature of Horizontal requires the face to be open (to varying degrees) at impact fix. Its not separation Fix its Impact Fix after all. Vertical Hinging would have the same as face angle at impact and separation .

Any notes Mike? This stuff sounds horribly complex in words. If we were all standing around in the same grill room with some sticks in front us it'd be way easier to describe.

Mike, OB - thanks for your advice.

I know Homer's only referring to the True Swinger in my above quote from 7-2. Should have made that more clear in my question. I am actually thinking about the True Swinger, only. Should he use Grip rotation to get that degree of openness required by the selected Hinge Action and Club length (per 2-J-1)? Isn't that somewhat mixing Grip rotation with Plane Line rotation?

Or should he get the required amount of open Clubface by placing the ball further back? (But with Horizontal Hinging, which per 2-J-1 requires a more open Clubface for the longer clubs, that would mean playing the ball from further back with the longer clubs, which seems counterintuitive, no?)

Asked in a more general way:

Can a player who uses Plane Line rotation to produce fades and draws use Grip rotation to get the Impact alignments prescribed by 2-J-1 for the selected Hinge Action?

And can a Hands Manipulated Swinger still use Plane Line Rotation to play fades and draws?

Throwout Aligns the Clubface for Horizontal Hinging, Closing Only Clubface through the Impact Interval. Longer clubs have longer Impact Intervals, normally, so the ball is moved along a greater distance before Separation. At Separation the Clubface is Aligned to the Target Line. At Impact it's Aligned to the Angle of Approach. That's the Perfect World. Compress, Sustain, Separate.


True Swingers always have the Clubface Aligned to the Target Line at Separation.

Hands Manipulated Swingers and Hitters always have the Clubface Aligned to the Angle of Approach at Impact.

1 length of club or club head speed? I hold with speed??

2 Arn't these just the ends of the impact interval and apply to either?

HB

By definition the True Swinger uses , no I cant say uses .... sees cf ALONE square the club face. ie he has no control over the club face. Grip Rotation is therefor not available to him.

Each club given built in hook face has its own unique straight away ball position. This is found through trial and error and takes into account the degree of clubface openness required for straight away initial ball flight. IMO.

Yes. But only a manipulated Hands Swinger or Hitter would be able to do this.



Yes absolutely.


Short version maybe this will be more clear: When you read 7-2 you have to understand that regardless of whether you are a True Swinger or Manipulated hands swinger or hitter the ball flight laws are the same. Divergence between clubhead path and club face angle creates curved flight . The true swinger can manipulate the path only . The manipualted hands swinger or hitter can manipulate the path and / or the face. Said another way in Homer speak , the manipulated Hands Swinger can manipulate the club HEAD and the club FACE. The True Swinger has no manual control over the club FACE. He sees the clubface come back to a ball played aft in the stance in a more open condition than does the manipulated hands swinger or hitter who employed Grip Rotation.

So the ball reaction for balls played back in the stance are different yes (given the implication to face angle inherent in Homers definitions of true vs manipulated swinging ) ..... but the ball flight laws are universal . No one can over ride the physics in play. Path vs Face equals divergence etc.

If I were to say cf squares the flat left hand
not the clubface what would U answer?

HB

Me personally or Homer?

I know you have issues with cf /clubface . Fine by me. I have some too frankly. Should we address the theoretical, intellectual here or just try to understand what the heck Homer was talking about in 7-2?

Maybe your points are best left for a discussion in the lab. YOu know, get the white coats on.


To answer your question. Homer said in the audio tapes the true swingers clubface stayed aligned, square to his left hand , his primary lever throughout the swing. He thought that Horizontal was a natural by product of true swinging . But he attributed it to cfs effect on the clubface not the left hand.

Just trying to get the thinking into the hands.

hb

The book only states:

Why do I get the feeling that y'all think CF Aligns the Clubface for Impact?

Because there are 2 ways to read "IT" but only one is correct.

A- there is "something" in the club design that allows cf to square the face- Ya know, the old Scottish clubhead that looks like a foot?- seen that explanation. That "MEDICUS" wire club (ughh).

B.- CF brings the clubface as part of a properly aligned machine into impact - but the machine alignment is "design" brought to impact by cf.

I am with B and those who try and make A work have a bent plane line. PERIOD.

It is unfortunate but I bet the above A/B thing is about 80-10-10 in the order of A-B-CONFUSED and that is too bad.

Just my point of view.

PS. O.B., The lab will just hide the subject in a corner. We are in ADVANCED so what should be a BASIC of TGM fits here, I think, By the way- reread 10-10-D. Does that create any problems for U? I

HB

Pardon me, but I don't see how this quote can have more than one interpretation. It clearly states "aligns the Clubshaft and Clubface for Horizontal Hinging". If he believed that CF Aligns the Face for Impact, I think he would have said so.

If you want another way to put it, he's saying that cf aligns for "Closing Only" of the Clubshaft and Clubface.

Guess we do belong in the lab. The idea that CF has anything to do with clubface is in the 80%. The clubface is the "back of the hand" period. CF tries to align the COG of the club but on the selected hinge alignment is mechanical. As in "my "B" above.
I don't realy care what others do or think- It is their game - but I am comfortable with the physics.

HB

Good questions - that deserves a specific answer - be back atcha when I have time tonight.

HB,
Can you just clarify what you mean by this? The context and specifics - might be helpful - otherwise this statement by itself would seem incorrect in many situations.
Thanks,
Mike

#12 above;
note the A and B sections.

I did some "sweet spot" stuff down in the lab a while back.
I proposed a "hang the club on a thread" experiment here not long ago.
I have debunked the "sweet spot" is aligned by cf numbers of times.
There is no magic physics that align the clubface all by itself.
CF takes place on a FLAT incline plane and provides NOTHING significant that rotates the club/clubface about anything (the shaft or cog axis) lying on that plane.

Like to hear your opinion
hb

I'm trying to understand you. It seems that you're mixing different concepts or maybe its just me?

Do we agree on the following?

Throw-out Aligns the Hinge. Throw-out forces the Hinge pin to become vertical to the Horizontal Plane. So, Throw-out causes the Clubshaft and Clubface to move along the axis of rotation to a vertical Hinge Pin. COG is Clubhead and is controlled by the secondary pin.

I'm not following your point about the Flat Left Wrist. If the Wrist was Turned through the Grip it wouldn't affect the Alignment of the Throw-out reaction. Throw-out can only produce a Closing Only Alignment (Horizontal Hinge).

Aligning the Clubface to a Flat and Vertical Left Wrist has advantages but its also the most difficult and demanding and you must always play at Low Point and its not always where you think it is.

I am saying that cf ONLY acts on the incline plane which is 2 dimensional with a sloping orientation- rotation about the club shaft axis or any approximation of this axis haqs NO cf component because that would require force perpendicular to the plane.
The ball may be addressed toe pointing below plane or hossel first and the ball will be struck that way. Club face is aligned at fix and is brought to impact by the left hand executing the selected hinge. Which is automatic and in your computer , I hope.
All mechanics and alignments- cf acts on the plane throwout is down, out and forward ON PLANE.

HB

Keep in mind when talking about a swinger's release there is first 'uncock' and then 'roll'.

CF causes the 'uncock' - and then the hinge is in position.

The 'throw out' (pivot) - causes the 'roll' and then the clubface is aligned for impact

Very interesting points but I am in enough trouble at this thread I think so I wont Anger the HK gods but U might notice the "sequenced release" thread I am part of a couple (4) subjects above. LBG/Fundamentals

HB

On reaching a shared terminology
 

It may be productive to delete the #2 and #3 Accumulators.

Using Basic Motion.

Throw-Out? Yes (#4 Accumulator) CF
Reaction Force? No (#2 Accumulator)

Roll? Yes (Orbiting Arms)
Overtaking? No (Zero #3 Accumulator)

Clubface Alignment? Yes

1. At Impact Fix the Clubface was Aligned to the Target Line
2. The Flat, Vertical and Level Left Wist was Aligned to the Clubface

Monitor the Hands. The Clubface cannot be Monitored. Don't Jack the Hands to return to Impact Alignment. Change, adjust or increase the precision of your Pattern Components or procedures until the Hands Return to their Impact Alignments.

2 questions
What is "jack" the hands?
How is #4 powered for "basic" motion?

hb

LOL

Steering

Muscle

Question #2
 

May I remind everybody that this is a thread on Grip Types... :-)

Like I said in the first post, I have a number of questions on 7-2. So here's my second question:

The first sentence seems to refer to the Clubhead Angle of Approach (the straight line through Impact Point and Low Point, as illustrated in 2-C-1 #3). Whereas the second sentence seems to refer to the Right Forearm Angle of Approach.

So don't these two sentences contradict one another? One calling for the true Angle of Approach and the other for disregarding it? Or what is the meaning of "otherwise" here?

Mike O. Id love to see your "when I get more time" thoughts . Post #15.

This relates to my geometry thread. I wanna draw 7-2 out , see if it makes things clearer than words. Ill draw manipulated hands swingers using rotated plane lines and grip rotation . Ill move the ball around in the stance.

I didn't understand your A and B - so tough for me to identify your point and know if I agree or don't. Here's my thought - as an object rotates in a circle - if the pull is strong enough then the object's center of mass will align itself to the center of rotation and maintain a constant relationship to that center as it rotates in a circle. So it's not closing or opening IN RELATION TO THE CENTER OF ROTATION - however for example in the golf swing it is opening (on the backswing) and closing (on the downswing)in relation to the ball/target.

O.B.-
As you know - there is no way that any one could try to follow "everyone's" posts on this thread or forum and integrate them all - in order to understand "the Golfing Machine". So many different perspectives, not fully explained (for various reasons), seldom are posts clarified to denote whether they describe a Golfing Machine concept, a perceived Golfing Machine concept, or an elaboration or interpretation, or new original thought. Now, I include any of my posts in that description. If I were trying to learn from this forum I'd definitely pick one person and try to ask questions of them until I understood what they were saying. I certainly don't have the time to be one of those. So, given the number of conversations and perspectives I wasn't going to add another voice to this thread

Mike O,

I'd like to read your thoughts post #15, too.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/post94980-25.html

Par71
Member Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 58

Question #2
May I remind everybody that this is a thread on Grip Types...
Like I said in the first post, I have a number of questions on 7-2. So here's my second question:


Quote:
The back of the Flat Left Wrist and the Lag Pressure Point (6-C-2-0) BOTH facing down the Angle of Approach (Alternate Target Line 2-J-3). Otherwise, per 7-3, both must face down the Right Forearm Impact Fix Alignment regardless of the true Angle of Approach (2-J-3 and 7-5).

The first sentence seems to refer to the Clubhead Angle of Approach (the straight line through Impact Point and Low Point, as illustrated in 2-C-1 #3). Whereas the second sentence seems to refer to the Right Forearm Angle of Approach.

So don't these two sentences contradict one another? One calling for the true Angle of Approach and the other for disregarding it? Or what is the meaning of "otherwise" here?

.................................................. ..
Because:
Hinge type - angled v. horizontal
Elbow position - punch v. pitch
Power application - swing v. hit
#3 pp - fixed v. roll
And all the ot6her alignment create the "otherwise"

Go to 6-H-0 and the shopping lists.

What may seem a simple question in fact requires a (the) book to answer.

Remembering the hands are the command post and the only way to communicate with the club- via. the grip.;

So it may look as if your thread is hijacked when in fact a very small part has been covered.

hb

Attachment 2954Mike I didnt ask a question of you. You offered to add your opinion on a very specific question in post #14 (not the entire post) at a later date. I merely expressed an interest in hearing it. Your opinion. My apologies if you thought I was putting you on the spot or something. That was not my intention . My interest was earnest and honest .... I value your opinion.

You participation , to whatever amount you see fit , is one of the good things around here.

Maybe we need a primer on "hijacking a thread?"
 

I'm being sincere in this since I have hijacked a lot of threads from being just not knowledgable enough to get right to the issue so I take the long way around and get thrown off. For example, I'd love to know if Mike Austin, Moe Norman, and Ben Hogan all had the same grip types. I don't know, but you see in asking the question it looks like I'm trying to jack the thread. I'm not. :dontknow:

So maybe a real clear description is in order for what is "thread jacking?"

ICT

Well, this requires a 2 part answer:
"everyone" knows a thread is a thin piece of string-
AND
As I learned just the other day from Daryl- "jacking" is a form of steering.

Sooo
There is no physics in "thread jacking" because every engineer knows
- YOU CAN'T PUSH A STRING -

QED

HB

Thread-jacking?

If I said to "grip your Club like you grip your money".......and then say "like Phil Michelson" who is coerced into paying 63% of his earnings .......... then coerced into not talking about it ............

That would be thread-jacking.

Getting back to "grip"..
 

As for grip type:
I can still remember the day I changed from interlock to overlap grip.
I was on the 9th tee at Rancho Bernado, just south of Escondido Ca. That is just down 15 from where MikeO said he moved to.
But I digress- This is Farmers week at Torrey Pines which is also near-by. What a great place the south is, Watch for the ocean break though. I have a copy of the dvd from when Palmer-Player vs. Snead-Sanders was there.
What a view from the top of those clifs.
But, I now live back in NH, Not that far from where MikeO lived a few years ago.
It is BELOW ZERO here so cut me some slack because when it is that cold I need to move my fingers (read type) to keep them warm.
Questions?

HB

When you changed to "Interlock",, was that on a Tuesday? ;)

Lol!
 

Cute! :eh: :eh: :eh: :eh:

Ha! U are trying to trick me! I will have none of that! I changed FROM interlocking to overlap. But. Tuesday +/- sound right.
Phil M. is a good guy- I think PGA is "kinda" like NASCAR. Very dependent on sponsers and good will and does so-much for charity - do not make anyone mad. Just move to Florida, quietly, to the gulf coast then the ocean will be on the same side you remember.

HB

ahhahaha nicely done..