The journey from "end" back to "top"...
 

Swinger goes to end, drag loads pp3, using aiming point concept for downswing... but from his position at "end" where does he start as aiming point for late, max trigger delay?

Hogan used to go to "end" ( at least in "Power Golf" era) and he had max trigger delay... but his hands move in "Top arc" section away from the target ( truly like a arrow from quiver) until he reaches "Top" and then they move in tight curve towards release point.

END


TOP


Where was he aiming his pp3 ( or should one aim pp3) in order to travel from "end " to "top?

Homer states that the "circle delivery path" is an extension of "Top Arc" and circle delivery is associated with no axis tilt...

DOes this mean that to get the "Top Arc" correct ( ie. position the hands for a relatively straight line delivery path) then you delay axis tilt until hands are in the "end" position... the the tilt of axis gives straight line delivery ...

In the Hogan photos ( from Power Golf) the shoulders seem o hve rotated a reasonable amount but the right shoulder has not descended much / at all... is this the result of delaying axis tilt? If so... how might one achieve it through aiming point?

If so, where is one aiming pp3 during the journey from "End" to "Top"?

Thanks for your answers.... you see that I am really working on the lag pressure and subsequent aiming point concepts at moment ( see othe rpost of mine in last month!)

Can you see the arrow being pulled from the quiver here? Get your club prepare to make a hammering motion in a vertical plane outside of your left shoulder. Let the club go way back and don't worry about your left arm bending at the elbow. Now hammer the ground from there. Did you "hit" with the hammer (club in this case) or did you swing/pull the hammer down? Now switch from the vertical plane of motion to the inclined plane. What did you find?

Hey on you Max Trigger Short Game question . . . check the pics in the book where you got these photos where Hogan is hitting short shots. Looks like Push Basic to me??? Hollatcha!

I agree with the push basic stroke in his wedges... he didn't go deep pitch position on all his shots... i guess with the correct change in aiming point this can occur naturally... and i think that there may be benefit for pictching...maybe... because lag pressure without aiming point concept is like Mike Tyson without eyes... all that power but nowhere to aim it effectively...

On these pics here... i do see arrow being pulled from quiver...I see the butt of the club move about 3 inches away from the target at the start of the downswing... i see about 40 degrees of shoulder rotation( from about 110 back to 70) and hardly any downward motion of the shoulder yet... i see the shaft go from being straight to bent...I can see his pp3 loaded...

I originally thought that you get more longitudinal pull ( more horizontal motion of shaft during the "top arc" section) by keeping the pp3 quarter turned for longer... and that this was associated with shoulder rotation before tilt... with axis tilt and rotation of pp3 back to "aft" also being associated... but just not sure... there must be some manifestation in the pivot from delaying the rotation of pp3 from top of shaft to aft.... just guessing at moment...

Here is Byron Nelson ( Winning Golf) at a real "top" position ( hands shoulder high)...

shoulders only 45 degrees rotated and right shoulder has not gone down much... I reckon he is still feeling lag pressure more on the top of the shaft than aft...

Now with your hammer stuff... it is 6.30 AM and the couple in the apartment below are already suspicious of the thuds on their ceiling :) ... but i think that i get what you mean... i pull my left arm down and club will uncock left wrist naturally on whichever plane i pull it down on... in vertical only plane there is no subsequent sequential release/rotation of forearm...but that does occur on an inclined plane...

Do people agree with this point ?

If so then where is pp3 felt and aimed? To get true circle delivery ( 10-23-E) i think that you have to move aiming point back and have no axis tilt... no?

"10-23-E Circle. ...the hands swing along on a continuation of the Top Arc...So - from any loading point the path to the ball, in this case is circluar, and is used, normally, only with "no axis tilt" ( 2-H) and arc of approach delivery line ( 2-J-3). See 7-23"

So when does the swinger (who goes to end and wants "top arc and straight line" delivery path) start to aim his pp3 at a forward aiming point?

Other sections that are relevant include :-

"10-23-C Top arc and striaght line. This pattern takes the hands beyond the top-of-the-line point, up and along an arc that is retraced when the hands return to the top-of-the-line point. This retracing is ideal for longitudinal acceleration with 10-19-C"

"10-19-C" = Drag loading...

"7-23 - ... The "axis tilt" ( 2-H) allows a line delivery path but does not require it.)"

I have read this stuff but am a bit confused... thanks for any help!

Dawg . . . Keep in mind the two very DISTINCT natures of Hand Acceleration being employed in Swinging vs. Hitting. The Swinger dependent upon CF reaches his Maximum Hand Speed MUCH quicker than the Hitter. The Swinger has a quick Start Down by spinning the flywheel. He reaches his Max Hand Speed very early (particularly Hogan with the quick hip turn). Once he reaches the speed he just uses the pivot to stay ahead. He has the pivot (MASS) to continue propelling the arms as the pivots momentum is transfered. So he can go to END (but doesn't have to) in order to have more arc to drag the club through and to get the Right Forearm in line with the Secondary Lever Assembly (club) to pull it downplane. The last thing the Swinger wants to do is to try to add further acceleration via the Right Tricep because will stiffle CF and essentially become a Hitter.

The Hitter on the other hand is TOTALLY AND UTTERLY dependent upon his THRUST generated by the Tricep. He advisedly doesn't go to End but stops at Top in order to keep his Right Forearm and Pressure Point in line with the Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club = 2 X 4). The Hitter has to have a slow Start Down so he doesn't "shoot his wad too early" via Accelerating too quickly unlike the Swinger. He must continue to THRUST with the Triceps to stiffle CF. If he were to go to End, odds are a) he would lose the in line relationship with the Primary Lever destroying his alignments and b) he would have TOO MUCH arc to move his hands through and couldn't continue to Accelerate/Thrust through the longer Arc.

I must call you to the carpet on the Byron Nelson pic though . . . that isn't a Top pic . . . that is a START DOWN pic.

The 'quiver' image is a very good one, but at least for me, it is far easier to get that move if you think of throwing the club AWAY from the target, in the opposite direction. As far as max delay, the power angle pro is a great aid to show you the proper feels for getting that right shoulder downplane IMO.

Interesting . . . how does that whole throwing the club away from the target dealie work? I'd like to hear more on that please kind sir.

A Good Top
 

Wonderful post, Bucket. Thanks!

And thanks also for the photo of Lord Byron at the Top. The Head is nicely centered, and the Pivot is textbook.

As a result, his Back does not lean well away from the Target and, in fact, is vertical. Compare the Head position and Pivot with TGM Photo 9-2-6. Note the angle of the Back to the vertical: Both exhibit little or no "pie."

:)

At root is extensor action, a movement away from the center of a circle, the radius. Think of lag pressure being applied outwardly, along that radius and around it (PP#1).

Think about how you would make your hands move around that circle to fully support impact with a forward leaning shaft, allowing on plane rotation.

Longitudinal force from the hands to the clubhead - outward force.

Thanks for the interest guys, i read what you say but not sure if it explains where the pp3 sensaton is aimed if a swinger goes to "end" and returns to "top" ( i was using "top" a la Byron photo as shorthand for "top-of-the-line" rather than "top" as in every stroke, no matter how short, has a 'top' which need not be a "top of-the-line" position - ie shoulder height hands.

"10-23-C Top arc and striaght line. This pattern takes the hands beyond the top-of-the-line point, up and along an arc that is retraced when the hands return to the top-of-the-line point. This retracing is ideal for longitudinal acceleration with 10-19-C"

Homer was OK with a "top of the line "position on the downswing... now thats enough carpet burns, Bucket!
Bucket quote " must call you to the carpet on the Byron Nelson pic though . . . that isn't a Top pic . . . that is a START DOWN pic. "