Downswing

[phillygolf]

That is one helluva question! I am looking at Els - and yes, his right shoulder is steeper... hmmm....same with Davis, Tiger, Norman.


Can anyone say from #3 accumulator? Just a guess....

[tongzilla]

Finally found one:

[phillygolf]

The "On Plane" Downstroke Shoulder Turn was recommended by Homer per Basic Patterns 12-1 and 12-2. Look at the photo in 10-13-D #3. The arrow is trying to show that the Right Shoulder is On Plane even to the End of Follow Through. Note that I'm assuming if the Shoulder is On Plane at the Top (10-13-D #2) and also On Plane at Follow Through (10-13-D #3), then it must be On Plane in between these two Sections also.

12-1 and 12-2 technically refer to 10-13-A, or Standard. A combination of 10-13-B and 10-13-D. So...at the top, you would have 10-13-B per 12-1 and 12-2.

Secondly...the arrow indeed is to indicate the right shoulder is on plane at the follow through - and though the pictures are to represent only that specific component, its easy to see that Diane has Zero #3 accumulator. Envision her adding it there - and if she did, there would be no way her right shoulder would be onplane.

I know it also says "when the Shoulder can't quite reach the Plane, it is better to use a steeper Plane". I'm trying to say that almost everyone uses a steeper Plane after studying many photos of pros (I excluded anyone using a Double Shift since they will be using the Elbow Plane, so the Right Shoulder will obviously not be On Plane).

I agree. My point was #3 accumulator - and if the amount of #3 accumulator is greater then the amount of axis tilt, seems to me it is nearly impossible to anatomically have the right shoulder onplane at impact. Both arms straight is an entirely different story....

Also. In 10-13-D, Homer never says the right shoulder is onplane at impact. He says AFTER A 10-13_B or 10-13-C Backstroke Shoulder Turn, the right shoulder moves toward Impact precisely on the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane, establishing and supporting the Power Package Delivery alignments"

I believe the follow through is only merely to show what 'onplane' means...not necessarily to infer the right shoulder is onplane at impact. Especially considering he never states that.

8-7, the Start Down, specifically implies it is the period in which the initial move towards impact.

I am of the opinion that, while we have to sift through the rubble, Homer was more concerned about the initial move down then he was on the location of the right shoulder at impact. Although I could see - with minimal #3 accumulator and alot of axis tilt, it reaching the plane at impact.

Its a great question Tong, really is. And appears to be a puzzle we need to put together. Thoughts?

Finally found one:

That doesnt look like a true down the line pic to me - it is slightly angled, plus it also looks like he is at low point.

I have some pics -Els, Love, Normal, Tiger...just need some help posting them. All have their right shoulder steeper then the shaft at impact.

[tongzilla]

Before we go further...

12-1 and 12-2 technically refer to 10-13-A, or Standard. A combination of 10-13-B and 10-13-D. So...at the top, you would have 10-13-B per 12-1 and 12-2.

Yes! That is why I said emphasised the word Downstroke in my last post! In fact, the photo in 10-13-D #2 is suppose to illustrate the same point as the one in 10-13-B #2, in the sense that they both represent a 10-13-B backstroke shoulder turn (even though 10-13-D #2 can also represent a 10-13-C backstroke shoulder turn, but it doesn't. Hope that doesn't confuse anyone!)

Secondly...the arrow indeed is to indicate the right shoulder is on plane at the follow through - and though the pictures are to represent only that specific component, its easy to see that Diane has Zero #3 accumulator.

There is Accumulator #3 in the photo of 10-13-D #3! This is because the Right Forearm is On Plane (and as long as the grip is in the cup of the right hand, regardless of wrist condition) and by definition the Left Arm cannot be On Plane at the same time.

[phillygolf]

Before we go further...

Yes! That is why I said emphasised the word Downstroke in my last post! In fact, the photo in 10-13-D #2 is suppose to illustrate the same point as the one in 10-13-B #2, in the sense that they both represent a 10-13-B backstroke shoulder turn (even though 10-13-D #2 can also represent a 10-13-C backstroke shoulder turn, but it doesn't. Hope that doesn't confuse anyone!)

Sorry. My point is....and I should have been more specific (regardless of your emphasis on the downswing), you stated this:

Note that I'm assuming if the Shoulder is On Plane at the Top (10-13-D #2) and also On Plane at Follow Through (10-13-D #3), then it must be On Plane in between these two Sections also.

When it is actually a dual of B and D.

But..hey,lets not quibble. (Picture in 10-13-D # 2 is NOT the same as 10-13-B #2).

There is Accumulator #3 in the photo of 10-13-D #3! This is because the Right Forearm is On Plane (and as long as the grip is in the cup of the right hand, regardless of wrist condition) and by definition the Left Arm cannot be On Plane at the same time.

Hang on...shaking my head. Now, I may not be the sharpest guy online, but this is alot!!!

First. By my visual at least ( and hey - anyone else chime in please!), I see 0 # 3 in pictures 1 and 3 and minimal, if any in #2.

Now....lets make sure we are on the same page.

Per 6-B-3-0, Power Acculumator #3 is formed by the angle established between the clubshaft and the left forearm

Now....and everyone follow along...

In 10-13-D, I cannot see the left arm. In 10-13-D, I can. In my mind, there is no accumulator # 3. Which goes back to your original question. And I believe I answered it sufficiently.

And you also said this:

There is Accumulator #3 in the photo of 10-13-D #3! This is because the Right Forearm is On Plane (and as long as the grip is in the cup of the right hand, regardless of wrist condition) and by definition the Left Arm cannot be On Plane at the same time.

First. left forearm is higher in #3. Second...why by definition can the left arm and right arm not be on plane???? Because of the grip (cup)???

[tongzilla]

Sorry for not being clear!

During Follow Through, there can be an instant where there is Zero Accumulator 3, in which case the Right Forearm and the Left arm can both be On Plane at that moment.

With the existence of Accumulator 3, it is not possible for both the Right Forearm and Left Arm to be On Plane at the same time.

10-13-D-2 is the same as 10-13-B-2 in the sense that it includes the situation depicted in 10-13-B-2. They are both trying to show the same thing.

(I have forgotten what the oringal discussion was...!)

[EC]

Wouldn't a power accumulator past impact and into full extension be a misnomer? I know that the definition states that it is an out of line condition, but shouldn't that only fairly depict pre-spent and zeroed out
conditions? Just curious...and seriously just a matter of semantics, but it seems as if we could pick nits into infinitum.

EC

[phillygolf]

Sorry for not being clear!

During Follow Through, there can be an instant where there is Zero Accumulator 3, in which case the Right Forearm and the Left arm can both be On Plane at that moment.

With the existence of Accumulator 3, it is not possible for both the Right Forearm and Left Arm to be On Plane at the same time.

10-13-D-2 is the same as 10-13-B-2 in the sense that it includes the situation depicted in 10-13-B-2. They are both trying to show the same thing.

(I have forgotten what the oringal discussion was...!)

My man Tong!

Me too....

Love your posts, dont get me wrong. Just wanted to pry some!

Let's move on...love the book, love the discussion....

Patrick