"Plane Golf"

[EdZ]

I prefer a pivot-oriented takeaway. Std. hip action. Some players do better with r. forearm takeaway. Golf is a game of choices.

It depends on the flexibility of the person. The so called 'one piece' takeaway simply can't be done properly if you are not flexible enough and IMO it can be hard to do RFT if you are very flexible.

[tongzilla]

One can use right forearm takeaway for both swingers and hitters, but if the person has no real preferences, then I think the pivot oriented takeaway is better for the swinger.

A reason why this pivot takeaway has had a bad rep recently is because if your hands are not educated, it will take the club underplane. Well, it's pretty obvious isn't it -- if you just turn your shoulders, and hips without lifting your arms, then the club will go under plane, i.e. just go around the body.

One of the issues with right forearm takeaway for the swinger is if your bring the club up with right forearm, you tend to bring it back down using your arms also, which you clearly don't want if you're a swinger.

[Burner]

One of the issues with right forearm takeaway for the swinger is if your bring the club up with right forearm, you tend to bring it back down using your arms also, which you clearly don't want if you're a swinger.

Forgive my monumental ignorance but, I have never understood how an object that is raised up by the arms can get itself back down again without those same arms being the prime movers.

The arms take the club back, in and up whilst the body responds to the motion involved. Likewise, the arms bring the club back down, out and forward, again with the body responding to the motion.

If you don't use your arms how in the name of G.O.L.F are you going to get the clubhead down into and through the ball, irrespective of whether you swing or hit?

[annikan skywalker]

The Shoulders can turn on an inclined plane ....YES...that means there is both horizontal and vertical motion that produces inclined motion...thus providing some "LIFTING" and "Lowering"...however the right forearm pick-up is the real magic...

Right forearm pick -up ....Kind like....Pickin up the cell phone....Put it back down....Not straight up and down...

BUT up n down the Inclined Plane

[phillygolf]

Interesting questions and answers, guys. We "west coasters" try to get those gyroscopic forces going right from the start. Pivot, pivot, pivot. Drag, drag, drag.

Is your name Mac? J

One can use right forearm takeaway for both swingers and hitters, but if the person has no real preferences, then I think the pivot oriented takeaway is better for the swinger.

A reason why this pivot takeaway has had a bad rep recently is because if your hands are not educated, it will take the club underplane. Well, it's pretty obvious isn't it -- if you just turn your shoulders, and hips without lifting your arms, then the club will go under plane, i.e. just go around the body.
.

Hey Tong!
Can you elaborate? I think a pivot oriented backswing and educated hands are kinda conflicting but I may be misinterpreting….

One of the issues with right forearm takeaway for the swinger is if your bring the club up with right forearm, you tend to bring it back down using your arms also, which you clearly don't want if you're a swinger.

Sorry to seem like I am singling you out, I’m not! But…I don’t get it – if the hands do in fact control the pivot, doesn’t this negate your concern? Just curious.

[tongzilla]

Is your name Mac? J



Hey Tong!
Can you elaborate? I think a pivot oriented backswing and educated hands are kinda conflicting but I may be misinterpreting….




Sorry to seem like I am singling you out, I’m not! But…I don’t get it – if the hands do in fact control the pivot, doesn’t this negate your concern? Just curious.

Yes, I was being naughty -- you're right.

By definition, the Shoulder Turn Takeaway takes the Club Off Plane (underplane) in the Backstroke.

All comes back down to having a good Zone #1 (Pivot) first. And a lot of people don't have that.

And yes, if the Hands Control the Pivot, then everything is going to be alright. Also the Hands are not Educated until they control the Pivot.

So, theoretically, everything is hunky-dory.

But like I said, most amateurs have a dismal Zone #1. A good Pivot is so essential for good golf.

Therefore, using Pivot Controlled Hands as a transitional undertaking is good for the learning process.

But at the end of the day, it comes back down to the Hands and their Clubhead Lag, Plane Line Tracing, etc.

Sometimes in life you have to do what you don't want in order to get what you want!

[golfbulldog]

One of the areas I find hard to understand and find "PGA pro golfer evidence" for is the right elbow position at address. TGM sets out a “Basic pattern” for drive loading and drag loading( 12-1-0 and 12-2-0)which involves zero plane angle variation and plane angle basic on “turned shoulder”. This appears to a sound mechanical position for the simplest, most secure , yet powerful, swing. Homer says plane variations can be hazardous etc….( not sure of the reference but I have seen it quoted somewhere)

This position is illustrated in photos in TGM 9-2-1 #2. preliminary address. Right forearm is on same plane as clubshaft ( elbow in line with shaft extension). This is a position rarely seen by top pros today who appear to have elbows on a more inclined plane than the clubshaft at address. Very few pros have any fix other than a forward press , which does not realign the forearm and shaft at all but only leans shaft forward. This immediately puts them into a basic swing pattern requiring single or double plane variation. In 7-7 Homer states that due to “personal preference…it is not always possible to adhere to a single inclined plane classification throughout the whole swing” but goes on to stress the importance of the forearm at impact. This makes sense but why is it that almost all top pros have some “personal preference, natural inclination or pressure of conditions” ( 7-7) that means that they shift planes!!

Is there something about the human anatomy (eg. upper arm : foream ratio) that makes this variation of swing pattern difficult for top pros to adhere too ?

Please understand that I ask this question as a beginner( to TGM) who has experimented with the pattern described in TGM 12-1-0 and 12-2-0 but find my hands are unusually high and the ball-striking variable. Should I persist or do I have some “personal preference, natural inclination or pressure of conditions” ( 7-7) which means I should alter my pattern to shift planes? If so what is this “preference” which is leading me toward a mechanically more complicated swing - something I am not consciously looking for!! Unless there is some power, accuracy advantage – unlikely!

Thanks

[Delaware Golf]

One can use right forearm takeaway for both swingers and hitters, but if the person has no real preferences, then I think the pivot oriented takeaway is better for the swinger.

A reason why this pivot takeaway has had a bad rep recently is because if your hands are not educated, it will take the club underplane. Well, it's pretty obvious isn't it -- if you just turn your shoulders, and hips without lifting your arms, then the club will go under plane, i.e. just go around the body.

One of the issues with right forearm takeaway for the swinger is if your bring the club up with right forearm, you tend to bring it back down using your arms also, which you clearly don't want if you're a swinger.

Don't believe the above assumption in the last paragraph is correct! Just look to the Magic of the Right Forearm and Tomasello videos...remember, with TGM there is more than one way to strike a golf ball effectively.

DG

[jim_0068]

Couple things i have noticed:

As a swinger...i don't like RFP as my entire takeaway option. Works for monty and couples, but i don't feel like i can mash it with a pivot takeaway.

Also i don't like a true shoulder turn takeaway either because it takes the club too inside on the backswing and since i don't "shift" on the downswing, i tend to get underplane or swing too much inside/out on the downswing.

So i use more of a "hybrid" takeaway that includes both a RFP and a STT. I use the STT for first few feet of the swing and then i immediately fold my right arm and bring everything to the end.

It's all about choices

[john riegger]

the hands control the pivot even in hitting.i use right forearm tracing and i am a swinger.start down is controlled by your aiming point.get your dowels out if you need some clarification.hopefuuly this will help.aslso see yodas video.probably the best golf lesson anyone will ever receive