Base of the Neck vs. Through the Head "centers"

[brianmanzella]

Great answer, Lynn.

Simple is always better.

If you do not want to respond to the strengths and weaknessness of these two perfectly 1-L compliant procedures, I completely understand.

But, maybe some of the others will comment.

Is it a 100-0 victory for one method oevr the other? or is there possible advantages to one over the other.

Let's keep this on topic, if possible.

[Yoda]

Great answer, Lynn.

Simple is always better.

If you do not want to respond to the strengths and weaknessness of these two perfectly 1-L compliant procedures, I completely understand.

But, maybe some of the others will comment.

Is it a 100-0 victory for one method over the other? or is there possible advantages to one over the other.

Let's keep this on topic, if possible.

For all but the most adroit, we are into the specious argument of 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin."

www.bartleby.com/59/4/howmanyangel.html

Keep your Head steady.

It is the First Essential of The Golfing Machine®.

Or, assuming you can tell a difference, keep the 'base of your neck' steady.

Your Body is a Rotor. Your Arms and Club are the Blades. No matter how it is driven, the Left Arm and Club always moves in a circle.

Do what Vardon, Jones, Palmer and Nicklaus were told to do:

"Stand still, and as you take the Club away, let your Body Turn, not Sway."

If you do that, you've got a chance to play this Game well.

If you don't, you better bring a lot of talent and a ton of time to the table.

Because you're doing it the hard way.

[brianmanzella]

Another great answer, Lynn!

But, in case anyone else would like to answer, here is a couple of points to consider about my answer:

If you use the "through the head" pivot center, your swing center—the left shoulder—travels—in a shorter arc on the backstroke.

Also, if you use the "through the head" pivot center, the possiblity for a circle delivery path, becomes far greater than the "base of the neck center."

But, the "through the head" picot center nearly assures the better player that the shoulder turn won't be too flat.

As far as the angles on the pin, I choose to only comment on the thesis of this thread: Is one PERFECTLY still pivot center, TECHNICALLY superior to the other...

...and why?

[brianmanzella]

Inexorably, the adroit betwixt our midst, shall endeavor to formulate a response.

[Martee]

Not being the roundest ball in the golf bag, I will add the following...

If the base of the neck is the stationary point, why would you want or allow a 20 lb plus object (the head) above that center point to have movement?

From the base of the neck (cv7?) is about 4 to 5 inches away from the center point of the head (cv1/2).

Rotation of the head around the spine (you stationary base neck point) does not cause the either center point to move.

Swaying and bobbing would appear to be acceptable product of base of the neck stationary center point UNLESS it is said to be otherwise.

The definition of swaying would be head movement to either side (toward the target or away). I will admit I am having some difficulty with swaying and a stationary neck base center point becuase of the short distance apart, it is more that head leans over with the ear touching the shoulder.

The definition of bobbing would be the up and down motion of the head.

It seems that either of these movements will be disruptive to the golf stroke, be it just impacting balance or causing unnecessary movements to compensate for the location of this 20 plus lb object that is now dancing around.

So is it really acceptable to having the head swaying and bobbing with the base of the neck being the stationary center?

It seems to me that the if the head is only allowed to rotate and is identified as the stationary point, the base of the neck would remain stationary as well. It would just not be the end or top of the rotational axis.

This all assumes the understanding is that if the base of the neck is choosen as the stationary point, then it can not move per-se. But if it can move then in that case it would not comply with 1-L-1/2.

[brianmanzella]

Good points, Marty!

Try this experiment:

Have a pal hold your head dead still.

Have another hold a finger BARELY above the base of the 'neck bone.'

Make a backstroke.

What happens?

The 'neck bone' moves WAY forward.

What is that, reverse swaying?

I don't know what it is exactly, but it is NOT rotation about a fixed point...

'cause the point is MOVING.

[Martee]

Good points, Marty!

Try this experiment:

Have a pal hold your head dead still.

Have another hold a finger BARELY above the base of the 'neck bone.'

Make a backstroke.

What happens?

The 'neck bone' moves WAY forward.

What is that, reverse swaying?

I don't know what it is exactly, but it is NOT rotation about a fixed point...

'cause the point is MOVING.

Guess I don't know where the neck bone is, cause yes I can feel the outside move, but it is rotating around. At issue is where is the center point and does it move. Is it the 'thoracic spine rotation center'? Now I did your test sitting down, I was attempting to minimize any movement other than the shoulders, don't know if that will make a difference.

The more I read what you write, I guess I am of the opinion that you don't subscribe to 1-L-1/2 cause you keep introducing movements and seem to be supporting your position that even the base of the neck movement is not only permitted but desired.

[Mathew]

Ch-6 Golf My Way - "Golf's One Unarguable, Universal Fundamental"

I regard keeping the head very steady, if not absolutely stock still throughout the swing as the bedrock fundamental of golf. It is inviolable as far as I'm concerned.

Who wrote this - only the greatest player that ever played the game ! The winner of 18 Majors !

The next time you are looking for something to watch on the practice tee at a PGA tour event, study the players' heads as they swing. You'll see a few that swivel - mine included. But I'd be very surprised if you see many that move up, down, or from side to side.

Hitting the ball as hard as I do, I know I couldn't break 80 if I were unable to keep my head in one place throughout the swing

Swaying is a cheap way to get the club back and up without turning and coiling the torso; without really stretching and working the back and leg muscles.

He's only the greatest player that ever lived....

[brianmanzella]

Wonderful response Mathew!

I was looking for something a bit more—how do you say—geometric or scientific, than Jack Nicklaus quotes.

But, I LOVE Jack Nicklaus, so should I start listening to all his advice in all 10 of his instruction books?

I thought maybe, Mathew, that you couyld draw one of those little illustrations of yours that will show the superiority of one of the "pivot center" methods.

[Yoda]

I thought maybe, Mathew, that you could draw one of those little illustrations of yours that will show the superiority of one of the "pivot center" methods.

Be careful what you wish for, Brian.

We'll have some up soon in the original thread. Remember, that was the one where the really substantive question was asked:

"Does the Pivot have a Center at its top, or should it be allowed to Sway to the right as so much modern instruction would have us believe."