I asked about downstroke shoulder lag, and the right shoulder having a passive, dragging feeling. Compda said yes, 6bmike talks about driving the right shoulder in his thread. I don't see how you could do both.
Stilltrying,
Thank you for your support of our site over this past year. Your posts always inspire constructive thinking about the Golf Stroke, and we appreciate your contributions.
In the above Private Message to me, you asked for help in reconciling the Feel of Lag and Drag in the Downstroke Shoulder Turn with its role in supplying the initial Down Plane Thrust of the Power Package. In fact, the core concepts of Lag, Drag and Thrust constitute Step Two of the Power Package Sequence of Operation (6-0) -- Power Loading (6-B-0).
During the Start Down, the Thrust of the leading Body Turn and its Accelerating Right Shoulder transports the lagging Arms and Club Down Plane (6-K-0). This Action creates the Clubhead Lag Pressure that the Accumulators (via the Hands per 6-G-0 and 6-P-0) will propel toward Impact (7-22). This Load is sensed as a Drag on the Pressure Points employed. The Right Shoulder, having been placed On Plane by the Backstroke Pivot, remains On Plane by Turning directly toward the Ball.
The important thing is that, having Loaded the Lag, the Body Turn then continues to lead the Power Package throughout the Downstroke. This move -- On Plane Body Momentum Transfer -- transmits the Pivot Motion to the Arms (7-13) and thus constitutes both Aiming and Thrust.
However, a vicious Thrust is not required and, in fact, can be disruptive enough to cause Clubhead Throwaway (7-20). This is true even when applying Maximum #4 Accumulator Power, i.e., maximum Shoulder Turn Thrust against Pressure Point #4 (where the Left Arm contacts the side of the chest) during the Start Down (6-B-4-A). Every player has a top Turning Speed (2-M-3) and hence Handspeed (7-20), and no amount of violent effort will change it much. So, after supplying the initial Acceleration of the Power Package, the Body need only continue to lead in order to maintain its place in the Downstroke Release Sequence (6-M-1).
To grasp this concept, visualize yourself running toward a distant object. How long will it take you to reach top speed? Once you've reached this speed, can you do anything more -- pump your arms harder, twist your torso violently or even grunt louder -- to make yourself run any faster? No. And so it is with 'extra effort' and the Pivot Motion.
Regarding Feel, the lagging Arms, Hands and Club put a drag on the leading Right Shoulder, and this Feel should be sustained until the Release of the Power Package Accumulator Lag (Out-of-Line condition of the employed Power Package Components). However, just as with the Clubhead Lag (trailing Clubhead Inertia), the Pivot Lag (Lag and Drag of the Pivot Train) is never 'Released' (6-B-0). This gives the Stroke its Maximum Radius (from the Feet to the Sweetspot) and makes the Club very 'heavy' (Effective Clubhead Mass per 2-M-2-2) and much more able to resist the Deceleration Force of Impact.
So, after supplying the initial Acceleration of the Power Package, the Body need only continue to lead in order to maintain its place in the Downstroke Release Sequence (6-M-1).
To grasp this concept, visualize yourself running toward a distant object. How long will it take you to reach top speed? Once you've reached this speed, can you do anything more -- pump your arms harder, twist your torso violently or even grunt louder -- to make yourself run any faster? No. And so it is with 'extra effort' and the Pivot Motion.
Nice description Yoda.
In fact, the Swinger's massive rotor (Pivot) needs to slow down -- not acclerating or staying at constant speed -- for Momentum Transfer to take place from the Body to the Arms and Hands. This is how the Left Arm gets blasted off the left side of one's chest, so Centrifugal Force can be 'set up' to work its magic. If there was constant acceleration or even constant speed of the Pivot, the Swinger would never be letting Centrifugal Force take over the Rhythm of the Downstroke and there would not be a slowing, overtaking process happening joint by joint that is necessary for Momentum Transfer.
All this is quite counter-intuitive because we think how it is possible for something to slow down to speed something else up. Maybe this is the science behind one of the cliches we often here from our friends and golf magazines: "swing easy if you want to hit it further".
Originally Posted by Yoda
However, just as with the Clubhead Lag (trailing Clubhead Inertia), the Pivot Lag (Lag and Drag of the Pivot Train) is never 'Released' (6-B-0).
I agree Yoda, but can you clarify by what you mean if Pivot Lag were to be Released?
"In fact, the Swinger's massive rotor (Pivot) needs to slow down"
At what point would this happen? Am I correct in assuming at this point CF would take over and then pull us around to finish?
Thanks.
Just follow Yoda's advice and you'll do fine
Yes, the momentum of the club will carry you to the finish.
You want to develop an instant acceleration of the Hips from the Top of the Stroke. This sets up a smooth and dependable Rhythm for the rest of the Stroke. Note that this does not mean you should violently spin your hips to the finish, in fact, quite the opposite. I personally like to associate this with the feeling of tapping a flywheel, because you only need a light 'push' and it keeps spinning forever (well...almost). You don't try to turn the flywheel by guiding it with your hands.
And remember to return your focus to your Hands, its Lag Pressure Point in relation to the Plane Line, once this motion has been identified and reduced to a Feel Equivalent and fully integrated into your Total Motion.
Note that this does not mean you should violently spin your hips to the finish, in fact, quite the opposite. I personally like to associate this with the feeling of tapping a flywheel, because you only need a light 'push' and it keeps spinning forever (well...almost). You don't try to turn the flywheel by guiding it with your hands.
Homer Kelley would have agreed, Leo. He came to understand 'Instant Acceleration' Hip Action and Drag Loading (10-19-C) by studying the swing of Ben Hogan. In describing Hogan's action, he used the phrase "'flip' of the hips."
This lightning quick movement Loaded the Lag and set up the Centrifugal Downstoke Sequence. But, beyond that little "flip," Homer maintained that nothing more was required of the Body other than that it continue to lead the Power Package Down Plane.
...Yoda...can you clarify by what you mean if Pivot Lag were to be Released?
If the Pivot Lag were to be Released, the Swing Radius would stop at the 'break.' For example, if the Shoulders were to overtake the Hips, then the Swing Radius would extend only from the Shoulders to the Sweetspot. And not from the Feet to the Sweetspot.
If the Pivot Lag were to be Released, the Swing Radius would stop at the 'break.' For example, if the Shoulders were to overtake the Hips, then the Swing Radius would extend only from the Shoulders to the Sweetspot. And not from the Feet to the Sweetspot.
In fact, the Swinger's massive rotor (Pivot) needs to slow down -- not acclerating or staying at constant speed -- for Momentum Transfer to take place from the Body to the Arms and Hands. This is how the Left Arm gets blasted off the left side of one's chest, so Centrifugal Force can be 'set up' to work its magic. If there was constant acceleration or even constant speed of the Pivot, the Swinger would never be letting Centrifugal Force take over the Rhythm of the Downstroke and there would not be a slowing, overtaking process happening joint by joint that is necessary for Momentum Transfer.
All this is quite counter-intuitive because we think how it is possible for something to slow down to speed something else up. Maybe this is the science behind one of the cliches we often here from our friends and golf magazines: "swing easy if you want to hit it further".
I agree Yoda, but can you clarify by what you mean if Pivot Lag were to be Released?
I agree that the "massive rotor" slows down in order for the "Momentum Transfer to take place from the Body to the Arms and Hands. But, beware not to do it intentionally, which might cause early release of the "lag".
The "lag" (from the pivot to the clubhead) should be intentionally sustained as long as possible to insure the existance of "thrust" through impact for resising the "impact deceleration".
The "lag" eventually will be "thrownaway" (sometime during the swing), no matter how hard/long it is intended to be sustained. But, make sure it is intended/allowed to happen beyond (way bepond), instesd of before, impact.
__________________ Yani Tseng, Go! Go! Go! Yani Tseng Did It Again! YOU load and sustain the "LAG", during which the "LAW" releases it, ideally beyond impact.
"Sustain (Yang/陽) the lag (Yin/陰)" is "the unification of Ying and Yang" (陰陽合一).
The "LAW" creates the "effect", which is the "motion" or "feel", with the "cause", which is the "intent" or "command".
"Lag" is the secret of golf, passion is the secret of life.
Think as a golfer, execute like a robot.
Rotate, twist, spin, turn. Bend the shaft.
1. Is the pivot actually slowing down? it does seem to. However, my hips still lead throughout the sroke even though during this apparent slowing-down, my arms are speading up.
2. Is the component we are talking about the "Sholder throw trigger" vs the "wrist throw"?
3. As both of you talk about these movements, I can feel them because this is what I do when I try to accentuate the #4 accumulator. The idea I have is to start down, then slow the hips (the right shoulder stays down and on plane), then energy seems to transfer from the torso to the arms. The arms speed up fast. It almost feels like I'm standing still when the ball is struck.
4. This is not my normal pattern. Normally, the right shoulder moves down and out all the way to impact.
1. Is the pivot actually slowing down? it does seem to. However, my hips still lead throughout the sroke even though during this apparent slowing-down, my arms are speading up.
2. Is the component we are talking about the "Sholder throw trigger" vs the "wrist throw"?
3. As both of you talk about these movements, I can feel them because this is what I do when I try to accentuate the #4 accumulator. The idea I have is to start down, then slow the hips (the right shoulder stays down and on plane), then energy seems to transfer from the torso to the arms. The arms speed up fast. It almost feels like I'm standing still when the ball is struck.
4. This is not my normal pattern. Normally, the right shoulder moves down and out all the way to impact.
1) Yes. The Pivot slows down during the Downstroke, but you should also preserve the Downstroke Release Sequence (6-M-1) and the consequent Lag and Drag in the Pivot Train (6-C-0).
2) The Shoulder Turn Throw (10-20-C) should always be used with the Wrist Throw (10-20-E). Otherwise you will be contending with Clubhead Throwaway, or a Full Sweep Release if skilfully performed with Educated Hands (10-20-A). So, start with the Shoulder Turn Throw, then finish it off with a Wrist Throw and Delivery Path Throw (10-20-D) combo to get nice Automatic Snap Release (10-24-E).
3) Even though your Pivot does and should slow down to blast that essentially inert Left Arm off, it shouldn't be a deliberate 'applying the breaks' type movement. That would be like Steering the Pivot.
4) All the Patterns Yoda and I described have the Right Shoulder 'On Plane' on the Downstroke. This is regardless of whether you're using a Shoulder Turn Throw or Shoulder Turn Thrust.
Hybrid Mode
