Bobby Clampett 1983 Swing Sequence with analysis by Homer

[Yoda]

Not so fast! HK's EXACT words were "the shoulder turn is as flat as
possible". True?

Well, if your shoulder turn is as flat as possible, it is an absolute
horizontal turn. True?

And if your shoulder turn is absolute horizontal turn, you will not be on
plane. True?

Therefore, can we not conclude HK's statements were inaccurate? Say
"True" one more time.


David Alford

My comments are in bold:

Not so fast! HK's EXACT words were "the shoulder turn is as flat as
possible". True?

True.

Well, if your shoulder turn is as flat as possible, it is an absolute
horizontal turn. True?

True.

And if your shoulder turn is absolute horizontal turn, you will not be on
plane. True?


Not true. The Shoulder Turn is a Zone 1 Component and, as
such, is independent of Plane (a Zone 3 Component). Assuming you
remained on a Turned Shoulder Plane -- TGM also defines alternate
non-Shoulder Planes -- you would be on the Plane of the (Horizontally) Turned
Right Shoulder. And this, in fact, would be the ideal, for geometrical
reasons beyond the scope of this post.


Unfortunately, we humans have a Waist Bend and Spine Angle to contend with, and a purely horizontal
Shoulder Turn could -- but might not necessarily -- produce an
awkward and un-golflike Motion. To the extent this is the case, it is by
definition improper Execution per 3-F-6. Homer therefore advises that
the ideal Horizontal Shoulder Turn be executed only as Flat as possible.

Therefore, can we not conclude HK's statements were inaccurate? Say
"True" one more time.


Sorry, SuperDave. The only inaccurate statement above is your own.

[Yoda]

John and Yoda, one of my main points in this debate is that the reader
should not have to reference TGM to understand "where HK is coming
from" in comments intended for the readership of a golf magazine -
unless, UNLESS he gave a footnote to TGM with the comment, "you'll have
to go here to see what I really mean".

In plain English the public will intrepret "as flat as possible" to
be an absolutely horizonal turn. Turn the shoulders as flat as possible and
you'll have close to a baseball batter's plane. For a golfer you most certainly
will not be on plane. I'm sure HK got it right in TGM, but again, his article
or comments for the article in the given context are inaccurate and
misleading to say the least. My point remains valid.


David Alford

"As flat as possible" means exactly what you have cleverly
deduced...horizontal. If you can do it. If you cannot...then
turn the Shoulder as instructed, i.e., "as flat as possible."
Just what part of "as flat as possible" don't you get?
Understanding this phrase does not require a knowledge of TGM; it
requires only the ability to read and comprehend. Only my
explanation of your misinterpretation required a knowledge of TGM.

Unfortunately, SuperDave, you understood Homer Kelley all too well. When he
said "as flat as possible" -- ideally horizontal -- he meant it.
The problem is with you and your mistaken notion that the Plane of the
Shoulder Turn dictates the Plane of the Clubhead Orbit. And that, my friend,
is simply not the case. On the Backstroke, the Shoulders and the Clubhead
Rotate in two distinctly different Planes. Always have. Always will.

Beyond that, to say that a horizontal Shoulder Turn would produce a baseball
batter's Plane reveals just how fragmented your concepts really are. It is
not even a good comparison, much less proof that your "point remains
valid." Remember, we're talking about the horizontal Shoulder Turn in
the Backstroke, and you are obviously referring to the batter's
horizontal shoulder turn in the Downstroke.

[Yoda]

I meant to say, it's not a downstroke like in golf.
There is a move down, but from that position many baseball players try to
swing parallel or even slightly up BEFORE impact.


David A.

All this is wonderful information, SuperDave. But please...tell me again what
the baseball player's swing through the ball has to do with the
golfer's "as flat as possible" Backstroke Shoulder Turn away
from the Ball?

[Yoda]

You tap the plate and then turn. You turn to get the bat and arms in
position.

David A.

Following your golf logic, the batter's shoulders after the 'tap and turn'
would be on or near the same plane as the bat, right? Let's pause for a
moment to get this picture:

The shoulders are horizontal and the bat is...

...almost vertical?


Oh me, SuperDave. Pass the peanuts and crackerjacks!

[Yoda]

I really don't understand why anyone would recommend it...


David A.

That pretty much sums things up.

[Yoda]

You also conveniently ignored responding to your error stating shoulder plane
and clubhead plane have to be different planes. They don't per the examples I
gave. Can you admit you are wrong?


David A.

Well, SuperDave, that one was just too obvious. I mean, c'mon. Of course
they rotate on two different planes. There needs to be at least some
challenge!

But, since you've brought it up, and since your latest post is crying out for
meaningful debate to educate the golfing masses, let's reprint your
self-described "examples" and see just how willing you really are
to engage in constructive debate.


My comments are in bold.

One of the main reasons you don't want a flat as possible shoulder turn is
because such a turn will tend to position the club inside the line when the
club is parallel to the ground which even HK knew was undesireable.

You have described a Pivot-Controlled Hands procedure wherein the
Shoulder Turn pulls the Hands below Plane. This is the polar opposite of
TGM's Hand-Controlled Pivot wherein the Hands maintain the On Plane
alignments and the Body responds accordingly.

That is true even if shoulders turn passively as a consequence of hand/arm
action.

Well, I guess that pre-emptive strike shoots down my above Hand-Controlled
Pivot response.

Now, you can avoid that by various means such as taking the club outside
initially, but such maneuvers have drawbacks as well.

"Taking the club outside initially" is merely a Hands-Controlled
Pivot deliberately executing the Start Up Off Plane instead of On Plane.
But, I'm glad you covered that base. Don't want to give the 'debating'
adversary any 'wiggle room,' right?

The are other solutions, but that is not the subject here.

But, just in case I had anything else in mind, let's just slam the
door completely!

The fault of too flat a backswing with the clubhead inside the hands when
club is parallel to the ground is one of the most common faults in golf. I
would guess it plagues probably 95% of all golfers.

"The fault of too flat a backswing with the clubhead inside
the hands??" And all this time I thought we were discussing a Shoulder
Turn executed "as flat as possible," a concept totally
independent of the Clubhead's Inclined Plane of Motion.

I really don't understand why anyone would recommend it unless they were your
opponent.


At no time did Mr. Kelley recommend "too flat a backswing." He
recommended a Flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn to place the Right
Shoulder on the Inclined Clubshaft Plane of Motion at the Top.

Now do you see why I didn't respond?

No, I didn't think you would.


Which is why I didn't in the first place.

[Yoda]

I'd pay $5 to see you hit a golf shot by turning your shoulders "as flat
as possible".


David A.

Sorry, SuperDave. You're exactly $1,490 short. But...


We'll miss you at Pine Needles!