Matthew,
Seemed a little lonely over here- and I was worried you might start answering or arguing with yourself
Good digging- some nice observations!
A little difficult to follow- might be helpful to clarify your perspective and also clarify it's relevancy- I get the feeling it's a area your looking into and still looking for final conclusions or discovery which is great!!!- keep digging.
Question:
If I understand the one section clearly enough- I see your perspective that in regards to a sequenced release- you would need some left wrist bend in order to have the shaft stay on plane IF you were dealing only with the uncocking of the left wrist and the roll of the left forearm. But since the uncocking of the left wrist would put the shaft below plane- wouldn't and isn't the offsetting factor the corresponding outward force of the "body turn" and/or "right arm thrust"- see 2-N-1.
That said- your post really takes that concept that I brought up a while back regarding that the left wrist is not on plane- and takes it further by analyzing and isolating how the sequence release can happen and still stay on plane- so very helpful!! in flushing out some ideas.
I'm thinking you're essentially in the 2-N-1 section-
"Hey, gotta go- Homer's back and looks like we'll be kicking this around for a few hours!"
Matthew,
Seemed a little lonely over here- and I was worried you might start answering or arguing with yourself
Good digging- some nice observations!
A little difficult to follow- might be helpful to clarify your perspective and also clarify it's relevancy- I get the feeling it's a area your looking into and still looking for final conclusions or discovery which is great!!!- keep digging.
Question:
If I understand the one section clearly enough- I see your perspective that in regards to a sequenced release- you would need some left wrist bend in order to have the shaft stay on plane IF you were dealing only with the uncocking of the left wrist and the roll of the left forearm. But since the uncocking of the left wrist would put the shaft below plane- wouldn't and isn't the offsetting factor the corresponding outward force of the "body turn" and/or "right arm thrust"- see 2-N-1.
That said- your post really takes that concept that I brought up a while back regarding that the left wrist is not on plane- and takes it further by analyzing and isolating how the sequence release can happen and still stay on plane- so very helpful!! in flushing out some ideas.
I'm thinking you're essentially in the 2-N-1 section-
"Hey, gotta go- Homer's back and looks like we'll be kicking this around for a few hours!"
Thanks for participating in my lil thread here Mike O ....
I consider this as my incubator thread where I keep posting my thoughts at a particular time so I can keep track of them, so unfortunately this thread does have a lot of randomness to it.
re the question - the two circles of the wristcock and acc no.3 need to be working together whist the left arm is above plane, so the only solution if you desire a sequenced release is introducing the third circle (wristbend) to the negative degree of the left arm angle into the plane (triangle shape - don't tell me I might be able to use that SOHCAHTOA trig stuff from school after all...lol) to align the circle of the uncocking of the left wrist to be on plane otherwise the other two circles have to work co-ordinately . The hinge assembly however depicted in 1-L is what can place the left hand anywhere on the plane as it makes its circular motion in 'its' sphere regardless of how it is driven. Provided the left shoulder is above plane as the left arm makes it motion from the sphere created by the hinge assembly this what must happen because the left arm is going through at an angle.....
On another observation I just thought of, this will mean that when the wristbend has to go back to 'flat' it will work co-ordinately when it works with the wristroll to go back to vertical if to stay onplane.
Vertical planes relative to the inclined plane. This is just a random thought again and may not be totally accurate...
A constant - The vertical plane of any hinge action will go directly through at 90 degrees to the inclined plane and when the blade of the hinge is at 0 (low point) and 180 degrees.
However the rest of the time - horizontal will turn the lever assembly the closer it gets to 90 degrees and then rolls back again until 180....vertical the exact opposite. Angled however maintains the same 90 degree constant throughout regardless of where it is on plane....
Another cool way to look at hinge action is via spherical circles.
Imagine that globe I described on the left shoulder. For the left arm to be lifted (circle 1). The positioning of the second circle (circle 2) however is dependant on the clubface motion you desire through impact - horizontal hinge action produces a circle horizontal to the ground - vertical will be vertical - angled will be angled ...etc but all referenced to the ground.
Homer used hinges as an alternative way to more easily communicate these ideas.
I believe that these circles or axis are positioned globally around the left shoulder rather than locally with so that these circles don't chance in regards to what the moving left shoulder does during the stroke....
There is something im missing though with regards to the orientation of the pin relative to the ground and/or inclined plane...just got a feeling about it.... With 1-L and its angled and vertical equivalents, the pin is flat against a plane that goes 90 degrees through the ground and inclined plane. What im wondering is what would happen if you changed this....
For a pure sequenced release a double wrist cock must be used.
I want to talk about the plane and the corresponding left arm alignments also. For every out of line alignment whether it be wristcock, wristbend, turning the hand towards the plane and the secondary hinge, it is actually impossible to overdo them on the backstroke provided they stay to the plane and its baseline which is ultimately under the control of the right forearm and pp3. If you were wishing to use a double wristcock in order to align the vertical wristcock motion to the plane - its adherance to the plane would mean that again you can not overdo it. Now when coming down the wrist can cock towards the line completely sequenced, and then since the wristroll and wristbend is two motions working co-ordinately, turning the hand back to vertical will automatically then bring it back to its 'flat' and vertical condition per impact fix...
That is how a 'pure swinging' sequenced release works....
I believe though that Homer knew this as it is hinted in 10-18-B double wristcock- "It is restricted to true centrifugal force Swings".
Ok so what about swinging with a strict left flying wedge. The lever assembly can still be accelerated via pp4 - the pivot to throw the wristcock which will automatically start the wristroll coordinately and still be by definition a swinger - using the rope handle technique.... The wristroll whilst totally co-ordinate works 'I believe' progressively 'faster' towards the end of the wrist uncock than at the beginning but yet it is still a full overlap of #2 and #3. I need to make up a graph at some point to prove this....
For a pure sequenced release a double wrist cock must be used.
I want to talk about the plane and the corresponding left arm alignments also. For every out of line alignment whether it be wristcock, wristbend, turning the hand towards the plane and the secondary hinge, it is actually impossible to overdo them on the backstroke provided they stay to the plane and its baseline which is ultimately under the control of the right forearm and pp3. If you were wishing to use a double wristcock in order to align the vertical wristcock motion to the plane - its adherance to the plane would mean that again you can not overdo it. Now when coming down the wrist can cock towards the line completely sequenced, and then since the wristroll and wristbend is two motions working co-ordinately, turning the hand back to vertical will automatically then bring it back to its 'flat' and vertical condition per impact fix...
That is how a 'pure swinging' sequenced release works....
I believe though that Homer knew this as it is hinted in 10-18-B double wristcock- "It is restricted to true centrifugal force Swings".
Ok so what about swinging with a strict left flying wedge. The lever assembly can still be accelerated via pp4 - the pivot to throw the wristcock which will automatically start the wristroll coordinately and still be by definition a swinger - using the rope handle technique.... The wristroll whilst totally co-ordinate works 'I believe' progressively 'faster' towards the end of the wrist uncock than at the beginning but yet it is still a full overlap of #2 and #3. I need to make up a graph at some point to prove this....
You know that you could bypass the complicated assessments of sequenced releases by becoming a Hitter. We've got it so easy. I'm a simpleton; therefore, I'm a hitter.
Like you, I am a huge fan of 1-L. I think if instructors truly took the time to immerse themselves in the study of the 21 basic concepts, they'd be better teachers. Though, there are some logical limitations in the drawing.
In three-dimensional Euclidean geometry, a sphere is the set of points in R3 which are at distance r from a fixed point of that space, where r is a positive real number called the radius of the sphere. The fixed point is called the center or centre, and is not part of the sphere itself.
Since humans have to hit the ball, we have a center working around a center. The left shoulder and it's distance away from our Stationary Post make the fixed point no longer fixed. Hence, a spherical shape cannot truly exist. But, as Homer said about golf, "demanding that golf instruction be kept simple does not make it simple - only incomplete and ineffective." This applies to three dimensional geometry as well.
We can both agree in the spherical geometry, if we see the left shoulder as the "fixed" center. But, we must also see the center's movement in three dimensional space. With this in mind, we can't even get an oblate spheroid, similar to the Earth's shape, because even this has a fixed center.
I appreciate your drive to understand more about this subject. Even more than that, I appreciate your drawings. They are priceless.
You know that you could bypass the complicated assessments of sequenced releases by becoming a Hitter. We've got it so easy. I'm a simpleton; therefore, I'm a hitter.............
Ted,
You're a Great Hitter and a Great Golfer. The only thing simple about you, is adding your scores: 3,4,3,3,4,4,4,3,3,3,4,3,3,4,4,2,3,4.
You know that you could bypass the complicated assessments of sequenced releases by becoming a Hitter. We've got it so easy. I'm a simpleton; therefore, I'm a hitter.
Like you, I am a huge fan of 1-L. I think if instructors truly took the time to immerse themselves in the study of the 21 basic concepts, they'd be better teachers. Though, there are some logical limitations in the drawing.
In three-dimensional Euclidean geometry, a sphere is the set of points in R3 which are at distance r from a fixed point of that space, where r is a positive real number called the radius of the sphere. The fixed point is called the center or centre, and is not part of the sphere itself.
Since humans have to hit the ball, we have a center working around a center. The left shoulder and it's distance away from our Stationary Post make the fixed point no longer fixed. Hence, a spherical shape cannot truly exist. But, as Homer said about golf, "demanding that golf instruction be kept simple does not make it simple - only incomplete and ineffective." This applies to three dimensional geometry as well.
We can both agree in the spherical geometry, if we see the left shoulder as the "fixed" center. But, we must also see the center's movement in three dimensional space. With this in mind, we can't even get an oblate spheroid, similar to the Earth's shape, because even this has a fixed center.
I appreciate your drive to understand more about this subject. Even more than that, I appreciate your drawings. They are priceless.
Hey Ted
Your right, the left shoulder does moves around in its own orbit but that is moved by basically yet another another sphere with the point between the shoulders, or the stationary head as its center. My spheres analogy is basically the usage of a center point and the circles of rotation that influence it. This is exactly what Homer used, but in a slightly different way - for him it was hinge pins and swivels which influence a center point to demonstrate the same axis of rotation. For example the end point of the radius of the left arm (hand) if not restricted by anatomy or anything else could touch anywhere inside a sphere with the left shoulder as its center.
With 1-L the hinge pin is fixed to a stationary post per my 1-L and 2-K equivalent animation, however in real golf with the shoulder motions, the axis of rotation or 'the circles' of that sphere stay exactly as they where whilst being moved with the orbit of the left shoulder around the head as its stationary point which is ultimately controlled with the right shoulder. So basically the 'left shoulder is moved in the sphere' around the head (which is a moving chord from a radius inside the sphere if the head is taken as the center rather being a purely a diameter when the point between the shoulders is used) but the orientation and the circles of the sphere doesn't get influenced by its own local movement....the vertical plane dictated by the hinge action doesn't not change regardless of the shoulder moving....
All about centered arc . I know we're for sure we're not in disagreement though - just its me not explaining myself enough...lol
Ps wait until you see the new animation when I finish it, its going be wonderful .
You know that you could bypass the complicated assessments of sequenced releases by becoming a Hitter. We've got it so easy. I'm a simpleton; therefore, I'm a hitter.
Like you, I am a huge fan of 1-L. I think if instructors truly took the time to immerse themselves in the study of the 21 basic concepts, they'd be better teachers. Though, there are some logical limitations in the drawing.
In three-dimensional Euclidean geometry, a sphere is the set of points in R3 which are at distance r from a fixed point of that space, where r is a positive real number called the radius of the sphere. The fixed point is called the center or centre, and is not part of the sphere itself.
Since humans have to hit the ball, we have a center working around a center. The left shoulder and it's distance away from our Stationary Post make the fixed point no longer fixed. Hence, a spherical shape cannot truly exist. But, as Homer said about golf, "demanding that golf instruction be kept simple does not make it simple - only incomplete and ineffective." This applies to three dimensional geometry as well.
We can both agree in the spherical geometry, if we see the left shoulder as the "fixed" center. But, we must also see the center's movement in three dimensional space. With this in mind, we can't even get an oblate spheroid, similar to the Earth's shape, because even this has a fixed center.
I appreciate your drive to understand more about this subject. Even more than that, I appreciate your drawings. They are priceless.
The equations may be complex, but the root of it all is a 'net' center of balance. The 'true' center of the G.O.L.F. motion.
Agreed Ted, hitter's have it easy. I have welcomed the dark side into my game much more than I had before. So much fun to be able to use both hitting and swinging!
Looking forward to your annimation Mathew. I suspect you'll clear up a lot of fog with many who still don't see 2-S.
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
For a pure sequenced release a double wrist cock must be used.
I want to talk about the plane and the corresponding left arm alignments also. For every out of line alignment whether it be wristcock, wristbend, turning the hand towards the plane and the secondary hinge, it is actually impossible to overdo them on the backstroke provided they stay to the plane and its baseline which is ultimately under the control of the right forearm and pp3. If you were wishing to use a double wristcock in order to align the vertical wristcock motion to the plane - its adherance to the plane would mean that again you can not overdo it. Now when coming down the wrist can cock towards the line completely sequenced, and then since the wristroll and wristbend is two motions working co-ordinately, turning the hand back to vertical will automatically then bring it back to its 'flat' and vertical condition per impact fix...
That is how a 'pure swinging' sequenced release works....
I believe though that Homer knew this as it is hinted in 10-18-B double wristcock- "It is restricted to true centrifugal force Swings".
Ok so what about swinging with a strict left flying wedge. The lever assembly can still be accelerated via pp4 - the pivot to throw the wristcock which will automatically start the wristroll coordinately and still be by definition a swinger - using the rope handle technique.... The wristroll whilst totally co-ordinate works 'I believe' progressively 'faster' towards the end of the wrist uncock than at the beginning but yet it is still a full overlap of #2 and #3. I need to make up a graph at some point to prove this....
Mathew,
I applied both methods today and I think both are a true swinging motions. I used a Strong Single Action Grip for both procedures.
The first, which aligns the Clubshaft to both the Left Arm Wedge and simultaneously to the Inclined Plane by Bending the Left Wrist does have good #3 lag pressure and quite easily traces a straight plane line. There seemed to be a lot of overlap of the #2 & #3 release. Also, the #3 pressure point did not return to the aft side of the shaft for me.
The second method using a Flat Left Wrist and Cocking on the plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge has more spacing (less overlap) of #2 and #3 roll and the #3 pressure point returns nicely to the aft side of the shaft before impact for a very solid wallop. I prefer this way.
....
We've got it so easy. I'm a simpleton; therefore, I'm a hitter.
Hybrid Mode
