Analysis

[lagster]

How about a GSEM analysis, Lagster! [Also known as Frank Moore http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/v....php?page=pros ].

Start with Jimmy's stuff, and I'll chime in.

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BALLARD

GRIP TYPE-- Weak Single Action- says his grip preference is modeled after Ben Hogan's grip

STROKE BASIC-- Most likely PITCH, but with the RIGHT SIDED EMPHASIS, could also use PUNCH.

STROKE VARIATION-- 1-2-3 or Four Barrel. Jimmy does emphasize the #4 Connection, but it is loaded at address, and does not appear to unload, so it may not be a very effective #4 Accumulator.

PLANE LINE-- SQUARE-SQUARE

PLANE ANGLE-- Not certain about this one, but probably the TURNING SHOULDER PLANE(1st Description)

Jimmy wants the elbows to stay pointing down throughout the swing.

ADDRESS-- Standard

HINGE ACTION-- Dual Horizontal, or Angled

PRESSURE POINT COMBINATION-- Probably 1-3, but some of Jimmy's people are probably Swinging, so maybe a 2-3 for them.

PIVOT--Standard

SHOULDER TURN-- Rotated

HIP TURN-- A Variation of Slide Hip Turn... especially on the Backstroke

HIP ACTION-- Standard

KNEE ACTION-- Right Anchor

FOOT ACTION-- Flat Left

LEFT WRIST ACTION-- Single Wrist Takeaway, but Jimmy likes a Double Action Left Wrist at the Top

LAG LOADING-- Drive... in most cases. Some, however, could be "firing the right side," and this is actually activating the #4 Accumulator, so these people may be Swinging.

THROW-- Right Arm or Right Shoulder He says to "fire the right side."

POWER PACKAGE ASSEMBLY-- Probably A, B, or C Top, Side or End(Mr. Yoda, what do you think here?)

POWER PACKAGE LOADING-- Random, but could be Full Sweep

POWER PACKAGE DELIVERY-- Straight Line

POWER PACKAGE RELEASE-- Any of the Sweep Releases Jimmy does not like people to "DRAG the handle."

There may be actually some "X" Classifications with Mr. Ballard. One of the interesting things with his technique, is that it could probably actually be Hitting or Swinging, depending on how each player "fires his right side."

[Delaware Golf]

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BALLARD

GRIP TYPE-- Weak Single Action- says his grip preference is modeled after Ben Hogan's grip

STROKE BASIC-- Most likely PITCH, but with the RIGHT SIDED EMPHASIS, could also use PUNCH.

STROKE VARIATION-- 1-2-3 or Four Barrel. Jimmy does emphasize the #4 Connection, but it is loaded at address, and does not appear to unload, so it may not be a very effective #4 Accumulator.

PLANE LINE-- SQUARE-SQUARE

PLANE ANGLE-- Not certain about this one, but probably the TURNING SHOULDER PLANE(1st Description)

Jimmy wants the elbows to stay pointing down throughout the swing.

ADDRESS-- Standard

HINGE ACTION-- Dual Horizontal, or Angled

PRESSURE POINT COMBINATION-- Probably 1-3, but some of Jimmy's people are probably Swinging, so maybe a 2-3 for them.

PIVOT--Standard

SHOULDER TURN-- Rotated

HIP TURN-- A Variation of Slide Hip Turn... especially on the Backstroke

HIP ACTION-- Standard

KNEE ACTION-- Right Anchor

FOOT ACTION-- Flat Left

LEFT WRIST ACTION-- Single Wrist Takeaway, but Jimmy likes a Double Action Left Wrist at the Top

LAG LOADING-- Drive... in most cases. Some, however, could be "firing the right side," and this is actually activating the #4 Accumulator, so these people may be Swinging.

THROW-- Right Arm or Right Shoulder He says to "fire the right side."

POWER PACKAGE ASSEMBLY-- Probably A, B, or C Top, Side or End(Mr. Yoda, what do you think here?)

POWER PACKAGE LOADING-- Random, but could be Full Sweep

POWER PACKAGE DELIVERY-- Straight Line

POWER PACKAGE RELEASE-- Any of the Sweep Releases Jimmy does not like people to "DRAG the handle."

There may be actually some "X" Classifications with Mr. Ballard. One of the interesting things with his technique, is that it could probably actually be Hitting or Swinging, depending on how each player "fires his right side."

For trigger type, I believe Ballard is using Homer's combination of "Shoulder Turn Throw" and "Wrist Throw"....not a right arm throw....Ballard appears to be firing the right hip and shoulder not the right arm (arms are passive)...it's a swing with transfer of momentum with the above trigger combination...

Hip Action - I believe it's standard.

Plane Angle Variation - Double Shift.

Deliver Path - Top Arc and Angled Line.

Lag Loading - combination of drag and downstroke loading.


DG

[Mathew]

Leadbetter Stroke pattern - Based on drawn sequence and my understanding of what he teaches based on his book 'the golf swing'...

1 Grip-Basic - Overlap
2 Grip type - hmmm its kinda closish to a 10-2-B but not quite
3 Stroke-Basic - Pitch
4 Stroke-Variation - Triple Barrel
5 Plane Line - Square Square
6 Plane Angle-Basic - X classification - nearest turned shoulder plane....
7 Plane Angle-Variation - X classification - nearest variation double shift...
8 Fix - does he know about fix?
9 Address - Standard
10 Hinge Action - Angled
11 PP combo - should be triple 2/3/4
12 Pivot - Standard
13 Shoulder Turn - Rotated
14 Hip Turn - Standard
15 Hip Action - Standard
16 Knee Action - Right Anchor
17 Foot Action - Flat Left
18 Left Wrist Action - Standard
19 Lag Loading - Drag
20 Trigger Type - Wrist throw
21 Power Package Assembly Point - End
22 Power Package Loading Action - Full Sweep
23 Power Package Delivery Path - Angled Line
24 Power Package Release - Random Sweep

Might not be completely right...

[golfbulldog]

Do you think the term "plane shift" is apt when what most /all people do ( including Leadbetter - hence your X classification) is a "plane drift"?

Plane angle can readily be defined at 4 points in all swings.

1. Address

2. Left arm horizontal to ground

3. Top/end of backstroke

4. Impact

plus maybe Follow through/ both arms straight.

Most golfers ( I would argue all golfers) drift planes between these positions. During drift the butt/end of club rarely points at target line unless the drift happens rapidly around clubshaft horizontal ( and therefore ideally parallel to plane line).

Leadbetter people basically are double shifters - categorised by their address / impact location and top/end of backstroke positions. They may drift a bit more than others off TGM plane at left arm horizontal but 90 % of people drift not shift!

[Mathew]

Do you think the term "plane shift" is apt when what most /all people do ( including Leadbetter - hence your X classification) is a "plane drift"?

Plane angle can readily be defined at 4 points in all swings.

1. Address

2. Left arm horizontal to ground

3. Top/end of backstroke

4. Impact

plus maybe Follow through/ both arms straight.

Most golfers ( I would argue all golfers) drift planes between these positions. During drift the butt/end of club rarely points at target line unless the drift happens rapidly around clubshaft horizontal ( and therefore ideally parallel to plane line).

Leadbetter people basically are double shifters - categorised by their address / impact location and top/end of backstroke positions. They may drift a bit more than others off TGM plane at left arm horizontal but 90 % of people drift not shift!

The plane angle may shift but the plane line never changes. The plane angle shifts by rotating around the impact point plane line like a pivot point.

Because the club is always on this plane, one end points at the line or is parallel to it, it is the whole entire club maintaining a straight line relationship to the plane line. Even when the plane shifts because the plane rotates around the impact point plane line, you are still either pointing to the plane line or are parallel. Going from one plane angle to another does not mean you go offplane as you travel between them.

Now, maybe I don't appreciate the genious of Leadbetter, but to me his procedure as described and depicted is basically offplane on both the backstroke and downstroke. There can be no downplane force directly towards the plane line, on a plane, any plane, when he believes what he does esp in the downstroke with his parallel lines (club pointing outwards beyond the plane line). He basically tries to get golfers to get the clubhead traveling in a big warped circle....although the good golfers he teaches don't do this....

That is why I listed as X classification with the nearest geometrically correct variation being double shift....

[golfbulldog]

How many "TGM shifters" truly have their tip/butt ends really pointing at a single plane line during the shift?

Unless it happens near instantaneously around club horizontal to the ground/parallel to plane line then a shift is almost always off plane until it re-establishes a pointing-at-the-plane-line position.

That is what I mean by drift - a gradual off plane movement which is needed to re-establish on plane shaft/sweetspot plane after a shift.

[Mathew]

How many "TGM shifters" truly have their tip/butt ends really pointing at a single plane line during the shift?

Well strictly speaking none of them because the butt end of the club doesn't exactly point at the plane line unless the sweetspot has rotated and thereby putting the shaft onplane as well as the longitudinal center of gravity.

Unless it happens near instantaneously around club horizontal to the ground/parallel to plane line then a shift is almost always off plane until it re-establishes a pointing-at-the-plane-line position.

These are not the precision alignments of the golfing machine. It is merely offplane. Whilst you can get away with being offplane in the backstroke, find an alternate downstroke plane or readjust at the top back to where you should be, this is not the prefered way. On the downstroke you must be in a position to drive the clubhead to a point on the plane line. Even with a plane shift, the force goes downplane towards the line on a plane and is one of the three essentials..

That is what I mean by drift - a gradual off plane movement which is needed to re-establish on plane shaft/sweetspot plane after a shift.

Or you could do it the proper way and shift and be onplane whilst your preforming the shift at the same time. The plane line does not change, the plane angle is adjustable....otherwise the clubhead orbit becomes 3 dimensional and the precision vanishes.

[lagster]

Do you think the term "plane shift" is apt when what most /all people do ( including Leadbetter - hence your X classification) is a "plane drift"?

Plane angle can readily be defined at 4 points in all swings.

1. Address

2. Left arm horizontal to ground

3. Top/end of backstroke

4. Impact

plus maybe Follow through/ both arms straight.

Most golfers ( I would argue all golfers) drift planes between these positions. During drift the butt/end of club rarely points at target line unless the drift happens rapidly around clubshaft horizontal ( and therefore ideally parallel to plane line).

Leadbetter people basically are double shifters - categorised by their address / impact location and top/end of backstroke positions. They may drift a bit more than others off TGM plane at left arm horizontal but 90 % of people drift not shift!

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I think I understand what you are saying about PLANE DRIFT. Some do seem to do as you describe.

An extreme example of this, I believe, would be the PLANE philosophy of Don Trahan, known as THE SWING SURGEON. He wants the butt of the club to point at the LINE YOUR TOES ARE ON, throughout the BACKSWING, and most of the DOWNSWING. His son, D.J. Trahan, on the P.G.A. Tour, does appear to do something like this.

He teaches a variation of a SWINGING PROCEDURE, and some of his students do very well. His technique is supposed to be easier on the back.

[golfbulldog]

.................................................. ..

I think I understand what you are saying about PLANE DRIFT. Some do seem to do as you describe.

An extreme example of this, I believe, would be the PLANE philosophy of Don Trahan, known as THE SWING SURGEON. He wants the butt of the club to point at the LINE YOUR TOES ARE ON, throughout the BACKSWING, and most of the DOWNSWING. His son, D.J. Trahan, on the P.G.A. Tour, does appear to do something like this.

He teaches a variation of a SWINGING PROCEDURE, and some of his students do very well. His technique is supposed to be easier on the back.

Have heard of the son but not the father.

What I am saying is that all players are on plane at address(plane angle usually hands or elbow), most good players are on a different plane angle at end ( TSP or squared shoulder) therefore there has been a plane angle variation.

I know TGM says that ideally club remains on plane even during shift but i basically wonder how many really do achieve this on the backstroke... i think some get very close, most will be less precise.

I used the term "drift" to describe those that meander off plane during most of backswing ( these would be all club-pointing-at-toe-line people etc). I do not mean to suggest that ,as far as TGM swing ideal is concerned, "shift" is wrong.

Just that most swings go off plane sometimes in backstroke and still get on a plane angle at top/end. The left arm horizontal (artificial as it is and I take all Martee and Matthew's points on board) catches most people "mid drift" or as they say "off plane - double shift x classification).

Not making too much out of it, just putting out thoughts...

[EdZ]

I've said it many times, but I think all the talk of 'plane' is lacking the proper perspective

The HANDS

The plane is defined by the hands and the sweetspot

What Trahan advocates is based on this I would say. A steep plane angle of the path of the hands.

The club follows what the hands tell it, so monitor the plane of the hands (not the same as the 'hands only' plane in TGM)