Angel Cabrera : TGM Analysis

[Delaware Golf]

That pic says DRIVE OUT to me . . .

Horizontal hinging....with a little chicken wing left arm action. Time to go to Popeye's....

DG

[bantamben1]

Guys remember Homers hitting and swinging is just his theory. Most golfers use both and not just purely one or the other in each swing. Most players look more like they are hitting short irons and swinging there longer clubs. I personally feel that way. Go try and hit a 1 iron pretty tough, much easier to swing one.

[12 piece bucket]

Horizontal hinging....with a little chicken wing left arm action. Time to go to Popeye's....

DG

I don't know dawg that looks like Swivel to me . . . gotta Swivel regardless of Hinge Action regardless of Loading Procedure . . . I love me some Popeye's . . .

[nuke99]

Is it?

It is ... The Left side can only PULL , the tricep can only PUSH. This doesn't change in any situation.

The forearm relation to its support of the primary assembly , and secondary assembly( 7-3) will determine the Loading. and Physics..

And a PULLin and Dragging isn't exactly Pulling all the way ... its an analogy and will cause problem if taken Literally. There is still a "Hit" it out out out like Tomasello say In a "DRAG" loading. A Long ARM down to the target .. ( DG is going to be very happy ) .. The reason i explained this is , the difference can be very subtle in a sequence.

[6bmike]

I switched over to a hitting pattern to save two rounds this spring- one in a strong wind and the other to stop a bad bleed to the right. Both rounds were some of my best golf this year.

Swinging to me feels like a left hand baton twirl- Super Max’ed out Accumulator #3- all pull and twirl.

Hitting is an out and out driving of the clubhead down through the ball- all right arm, right shoulder, right everything via PP3(head) and PP1(shaft)- malice on the ball with a club.

Both patterns don't look all that different from Store to Finish, either.

So, are you pulling and twirling or pushing and driving? Can’t see physics.

[danny_shank]

Pushing or pulling is physics... these are Homer Kelley's words ( as per 7th edition and editing)... my italics /bold/underline....

"HIT OR SWING

7-19. LAG LOADING
This category recognizes the over-all control by the Clubhead Lag Pressure Point (6-C-2) and that manipulation of its Loading Procedure determines the Physics of both Hitting and Swinging (Preface). (Study 6-H-0, 7-3 and 7-20.)"

golfbulldog your argument has far from sold me yet i'm afraid. In 7-3 when Homer talks about the position of the right forearm he says 'should' he doesn't say it separates hitting and swinging. To me it's still an ideal. from my own experience i can get my right arm in all sorts of funky positions and still swing.

Back to 7-19, the text you quoted doesn't mean a great deal on it's own as it does not specify what the manipulation is. But Homer does seem to go on to clarify:

"Clubhead Lag can be established in three different ways:
-1. by resisting the Backstroke motion for Drive Loading
-2. with the Start Down motion for Float Loading
-3 by "throwing" the club against the Lag Pressure Point at The Top for Drag Loading"

Theres no way he;s resisting the backstroke for drive loading, lucky number 3 for me...

[SECGolf]

golfbulldog your argument has far from sold me yet i'm afraid. In 7-3 when Homer talks about the position of the right forearm he says 'should' he doesn't say it separates hitting and swinging. To me it's still an ideal. from my own experience i can get my right arm in all sorts of funky positions and still swing.

Back to 7-19, the text you quoted doesn't mean a great deal on it's own as it does not specify what the manipulation is. But Homer does seem to go on to clarify:

"Clubhead Lag can be established in three different ways:
-1. by resisting the Backstroke motion for Drive Loading
-2. with the Start Down motion for Float Loading
-3 by "throwing" the club against the Lag Pressure Point at The Top for Drag Loading"

Theres no way he;s resisting the backstroke for drive loading, lucky number 3 for me...

Just for purposes of more info -
Remember in 6-C he states the loading of clubhead lag is constant, that is the loading continues throughout the stroke. So lag manipulation refers to establishment, producing and maintaining. Establishment detailed above, and maintaining or producing by drive (indirect or direct) of centrifugal force (swing) or of triceps muscle (hit).

Since it is hard to tell about the type of drive, IF you are going toTRY to determine hitting or swinging, maybe look at hinge action on MOST shots.
Reasoning: Hinge action CERTAINLY does NOT determine hitting or swinging, but angled is natural consequence of muscle drive, and horizontal natural consequence of centrifugal force (hence MOST shots). Then again they could manipulate hinge action on every shot and you are still uncertain.

[golfbulldog]

golfbulldog your argument has far from sold me yet i'm afraid. In 7-3 when Homer talks about the position of the right forearm he says 'should' he doesn't say it separates hitting and swinging. To me it's still an ideal. from my own experience i can get my right arm in all sorts of funky positions and still swing.

Back to 7-19, the text you quoted doesn't mean a great deal on it's own as it does not specify what the manipulation is. But Homer does seem to go on to clarify:

"Clubhead Lag can be established in three different ways:
-1. by resisting the Backstroke motion for Drive Loading
-2. with the Start Down motion for Float Loading
-3 by "throwing" the club against the Lag Pressure Point at The Top for Drag Loading"

Theres no way he;s resisting the backstroke for drive loading, lucky number 3 for me...

Hi Danny, not trying to convince every/anyone - just amusing to read over 30 posts discussing hit or swing for Cabrera with no consensus opinion formed and no mention of the loading action.

"6-C-2-0. CLUBHEAD LAG
is the "Secret of Golf" technique -without it the Line of Compression (2-0) cannot be sustained (3-F-7-B). "

So clubhead lag is the core of STLOC.. which would suggest that its establishment - ie. loading ( and it maintenance as per SECgolf) are key to the discussion of any swingpattern.

So much of the discussion has revolved around the use of accumulator 1 defining hit or swing ( probably because that is the key accumulator used in hitting/ pushing the pp3 ...ie. PP3 behind the shaft).... but 4 barrel swingers use it as well... presumably once the swingers pp3 has re-rotated back the quarter turn and is behind the shaft just prior to impact.

If this is the case then accumulator 1 should not be the defining characteristic for hit or swing if it can be common to both.

Nobody has a perfect definition... that is why there were so many differing opinions... 12 piece stuck his extremely well informed neck out and went for hitter, others saw swinger...

All i am saying is that the loading of lag is key component in the discussion and the manner in which you make/feel the shaft stress should really govern your other components... hinge action is a semi-natural secondary to what has gone before ( ie. a pure pulling swing will tend towards horizontal but can be over-ridden and pure hit with simultaneous release will tend towards angled but can also be manually over-ridden)...

What would be really interesting is to have a definition of what we mean by hit or swing, then work out a way of assessing players ( in whatevr way you like) to decide what they are doing...

[SECGolf]

Hi Danny, not trying to convince every/anyone - just amusing to read over 30 posts discussing hit or swing for Cabrera with no consensus opinion formed and no mention of the loading action.

"6-C-2-0. CLUBHEAD LAG
is the "Secret of Golf" technique -without it the Line of Compression (2-0) cannot be sustained (3-F-7-B). "

So clubhead lag is the core of STLOC.. which would suggest that its establishment - ie. loading ( and it maintenance as per SECgolf) are key to the discussion of any swingpattern.

So much of the discussion has revolved around the use of accumulator 1 defining hit or swing ( probably because that is the key accumulator used in hitting/ pushing the pp3 ...ie. PP3 behind the shaft).... but 4 barrel swingers use it as well... presumably once the swingers pp3 has re-rotated back the quarter turn and is behind the shaft just prior to impact.

If this is the case then accumulator 1 should not be the defining characteristic for hit or swing if it can be common to both.

Nobody has a perfect definition... that is why there were so many differing opinions... 12 piece stuck his extremely well informed neck out and went for hitter, others saw swinger...

All i am saying is that the loading of lag is key component in the discussion and the manner in which you make/feel the shaft stress should really govern your other components... hinge action is a semi-natural secondary to what has gone before ( ie. a pure pulling swing will tend towards horizontal but can be over-ridden and pure hit with simultaneous release will tend towards angled but can also be manually over-ridden)...

What would be really interesting is to have a definition of what we mean by hit or swing, then work out a way of assessing players ( in whatevr way you like) to decide what they are doing...

Good Post. When the hitting vs swinging comes up, my understanding says that technically, it is black and white. What is the basic intent of the right arm (accum #1) - to move lever actively or to move lever passively. Right there in 7-19 and 10-19. Also assuming a person is a pure hitter or swinger, there is absolutely no way to tell which unless you are in that person's mind. There are clues that ONLY MOST of the hitter or swinger population might have, but that's it. You can't assume against exceptions.

[6bmike]

What would be really interesting is to have a definition of what we mean by hit or swing, then work out a way of assessing players ( in whatevr way you like) to decide what they are doing...

Can't be done. This has been the one thing asked by forum members on any TGM forum since the last century. Everyone want a "list."
The Intent of Push or Pull is invisible. The Geomtery is the same- that circle doesn't change- the motion is very much alike. The End of the swing is different on full shots and might be the closest part of the swing that one can tell if a TGMer is Hitting or Swinging. Tour guys are different- they all compensate some form of a pull. Tour guys never studied TGM, never had to decide if they pushed or pulled- they are pull full shots.

Maybe in a few years some real TGM kids grow up and make the tour. They will be the first ones that will know the difference. Nobody (AIs) had a clue to what the Hit stroke could be until Yoda swung forth from the Swamp- and that has four years ago. We live in a cross roads of golf and G.O.L.F. instruction.
We all have an opportunity no Tour player ever had- to build a machine to 'our' specs. Tour players will always have something we will NEVER have- frigging TALENT. They can out play anyone and always could. But that is changing and TGM-Lynn Blake-and others are making noise.

As for Loading Lag- you better load lag- was they even a question about it?
Body-Hands-Club, Impact. Lag is great, now thrust it.


The elephant is very like a tree, a wall, a fan, a snake and a rope. So are parts of The Golfing Machine.