I saw your post today in the Drag The Wet Mop thread and it reminded me of this enticing cliff hanger here. Man if you get Startup right everything just flows, eh? On the other hand some days I feel like Im fighting my body. If I can just crack this Elbow Magic code..............
Did you see Sean O'hare on the weekend? Not a lot of elbow bend on him and as you mentioned a very upright plane to match accordingly.
So what gives one the instant "up" then? I can see fanning and the pivot giving you the "back" and "in". In your other post (you should move it here , its very interesting) you mentioned Extensor Action as lifting the club up , I think. I thought EA shouldnt move the club? Which leaves us with 'bending" I guess. I note you didnt mention bending above. What you got against elbow bending anyways?
I used to have a frozen right elbow and right hip too, covered the plane, lifted the club up with my hands, cocked both my wrists ..............ouch. Im happy to automate much of my new swing with a bending right elbow. Hey we did some elbow bending in Atlanta eh? Remember. Didnt bother you intellectually then!
Move your post over here, its inspired. A total rewrite of the book, but inspired. You are learned and so I differ to your inspiration until I am presented with a more sane explanation. Which hopefully will come very soon. I have a noon tee off time and need to know.
Dear Pivot controlled Hands Player and friend, O.B.
Do not pivot at start-up. The Bend in your right elbow at Impact Fix allows your right forearm to lay on the plane. You have more bend than I because you use a Punch Elbow position. So you can only arrive at release on the elbow plane. A steeper Plane Angle would require a Pitched Elbow.
Your Right Forearm Pick-up, Start-up, is the exact upward angle of your Right Forearm at Impact Fix (using only your Right Deltoid Muscles). For you, I guess, from 7am to 2pm. Elbow Plane. Have someone stand in front of you while you assume Impact Fix. Tell them to superimpose a Clock-face over your right forearm. Ask them to stand to your right and tell you if you followed that angle on your backstroke. That’s the direction that your right shoulder moves your bent right arm to the top your swing. Do not bend or unbend your right arm any more or less until Release. Your Right Shoulder and Left arm (Check-rein) will control your Right elbow position throughout the entire stroke. And your Right Forearm will be ON-Plane at Release.
The MAGIC is that because your right arm is bent a certain amount, that the extensor action take-away can only move your hands at the precise angle required because the checkrein won't allow any other plane angle. COOL.
The Punch Elbow, is a location. The elbow goes straight to the ball from release to impact (because your body is rotating, you just and only need to thrust straight), but your hand traces an arc.
Regards, from a Hand Controlled Pivot Player,
Daryl
I'm still a little shaky on how to trace the plane line with the #3 pp. But as a side note to the previous discussion on pivot to hands vs hands to pivot, it occurs to me that if your mind is on you pivot , tracing is likely non existent or problematic at best. Is that right? Although still better than monitoring the clubhead.
Here is a YodasLuke post from my old TGM file. I dont have the 7th edition but find this interesting.
You cannot trace the plane line if you allow your hands to rise above the elbow plane because you use a Punch Elbow Position. If your hands go above the elbow plane, you must shift planes on the downstroke to the elbow plane before you can trace anything.
In other words. Your Hands at Impact fix, have already told the pivot what to do. Your hands said, "I'm going to swing on a elbow plane, so you, my pivot, get ready to move them back down this plane", and your pivot said, "ok, but if you switch planes on me at the top of the swing, like you always do, then I won't be ready, so don't blame me if things get screwed up again."
The Plane Angle inclination is set at impact fix and there is no changing that. If your Hands go above that plane at the top of your backstroke, you can only trace an outside-in path accross the planeline.
Dear Pivot controlled Hands Player and friend, O.B.
Do not pivot at start-up. The Bend in your right elbow at Impact Fix allows your right forearm to lay on the plane. You have more bend than I because you use a Punch Elbow position. So you can only arrive at release on the elbow plane. A steeper Plane Angle would require a Pitched Elbow.
Your Right Forearm Pick-up, Start-up, is the exact upward angle of your Right Forearm at Impact Fix (using only your Right Deltoid Muscles). For you, I guess, from 7am to 2pm. Elbow Plane. Have someone stand in front of you while you assume Impact Fix. Tell them to superimpose a Clock-face over your right forearm. Ask them to stand to your right and tell you if you followed that angle on your backstroke. That’s the direction that your right shoulder moves your bent right arm to the top your swing. Do not bend or unbend your right arm any more or less until Release. Your Right Shoulder and Left arm (Check-rein) will control your Right elbow position throughout the entire stroke. And your Right Forearm will be ON-Plane at Release.
The MAGIC is that because your right arm is bent a certain amount, that the extensor action take-away can only move your hands at the precise angle required because the checkrein won't allow any other plane angle. COOL.
The Punch Elbow, is a location. The elbow goes straight to the ball from release to impact (because your body is rotating, you just and only need to thrust straight), but your hand traces an arc.
Regards, from a Hand Controlled Pivot Player,
Daryl
Daryl, thanks for this.
I must say that as an old frozen right elbow, shoulder turn takeaway guy, that I am quite fond of my bending right elbow and new found tracing ability. I value your learned opinion, truly , and will do some thinking on it, some experimentation.
To me pickup implies elbow bend. If Homer didnt really mean elbow bend when he said it, then his writing is even more obtuse than I suspected. Not that this would surprise me or anything, but man things are cryptic enough, already.
If I understand you correctly, with EA and a turning back to plane right shoulder it is possible, indeed preferable to maintain the degree of bend in the right elbow as established at fix. I can see how this would all work but the problem I have with this is that it would imply that the left arm would never come across the chest. If it did then to my thinking the right side of the triangle would shorten via elbow bending, no? Where's your #4 angle? How do you cock your left wrist, if not by right elbow bending? Active wrist cocking? Are you sure this isnt pivot to hands?
The Plane Angle inclination is set at impact fix and there is no changing that. If your Hands go above that plane at the top of your backstroke, you can only trace an outside-in path accross the planeline.
What about 1-L-18, Changing the Plane Angle has no effect on the Plane Line.
I must say that as an old frozen right elbow, shoulder turn takeaway guy, that I am quite fond of my bending right elbow and new found tracing ability. I value your learned opinion, truly , and will do some thinking on it, some experimentation.
To me pickup implies elbow bend. If Homer didnt really mean elbow bend when he said it, then his writing is even more obtuse than I suspected. Not that this would surprise me or anything, but man things are cryptic enough, already.
If I understand you correctly, with EA and a turning back to plane right shoulder it is possible, indeed preferable to maintain the degree of bend in the right elbow as established at fix. I can see how this would all work but the problem I have with this is that it would imply that the left arm would never come across the chest. If it did then to my thinking the right side of the triangle would shorten via elbow bending, no? Where's your #4 angle? How do you cock your left wrist, if not by right elbow bending? Active wrist cocking? Are you sure this isnt pivot to hands?
I will give it some thought though.
Why would the left arm not come accross the chest? It will seriously cross the chest and more. Extensor action will pull the left arm tight to the chest! Remember he said that on its own, the left arm can only get to about 45 degrees to the chest? Extensor action sucks the left arm to the chest. Extensor Action pulls the Left Arm Tightly Against the Chest and holds it there......
OB.
I understand your confusion. The Right Elbow Bend at Impact Fix needs to stay FIXED at that degree of bend. Magic of the Right forearm is allowed to bend another inch or so to cock the left wrist. Then, a true (not false) extensor action take-away will control your shoulder location at the top of the swing for it to properly support the #3 pressure point during the downswing sequence.
With steep Swing Planes, Extensor action with a fixed right elbow bend will cause your right shoulder to raise as you take-away your hands on that same steep plane because the final destination of the right shoulder depends on how much front or side or back deltoid muscle is used in extensor action. If you bend your right elbow on the backswing to raise your arms then your right shoulder is swingin in the breese. You won't be able to dictate where the shoulder should be or the elbow.
When singing on Flatter Swing Planes, Extensor Action with a fixed Right elbow bend will cause your Right Shoulder to be flatter as you take-away your hands on that shallower plane.
Please consider this. Cross your arms across your chest and bend forward at the hips. Turn your shoulders but allow your knees to bend and your hips to turn and slant. YOUR SHOULDERS will turn on a Rotated Shoulder Plane. Now experiment…lock one knee or the other, lock both, allow them to wiggle your butt or push it back and forth, side to side,,whatever, until you find a pivot like motion that will turn those shoulders on a flatter plane during the backswing (if you want them on a flatter plane)and drive your right shoulder to the plane line on your downswing.
Homer Kelley is saying that the Extensor Action Take-away, and backswing will put your right shoulder and elbow moving on the plane you selected at IMPACT FIX (fixing your right elbow to match your desired swing plane when using the left arm checkrein) so extensor action will match your right shoulder turn to your swing plane, but Homer also says that your pivot will screw everything up if you don’t train it to move your right shoulder back to the plane during the backswing or on a path to the plane line at the Start-down.
He DID NOT say that the PIVOT can screw up the shoulder turn angle (Rotated, flat) on the backswing because it’s controlled by Extensor Action, but it will screw up how far back the shoulder will go to reach the swing Plane. . ….7-13, and the pivot can also screw up on the downswing by driving the shoulder off plane. 10-11-0-3, the Pivot must comply with the #3 pressure point aiming.
So, your posture at impact fix is important because it effects your right elbow location and your ability to have your right forearm on-plane. So don’t change your posture once you figure it out, then train your pivot to get your right shoulder back to the plane on the backswing and to drive your right shoulder down to the plane line at Start-down.
So, cross your arms and train your pivot.
The feet, knees and hips, especially hip slant, work slightly different for a steeper swing plane than a shallower swing plane.
I value your insights given your years of commitment to the book (s). Was it eight sixth editions that you have burned through? I will take some time to ponder all of this with my solitary 6th in hand. Wish we could hash it out on a range somewhere.
I must admit that I dont understand how you can have a flat ish swing plane with only an inch or two of right elbow bend.
Ill do your drills when I get a chance to without everyone here wondering what the heck Im doing. Here is a drill for your consideration too:
Do you want angled or horizontal......ok horizontal, not trying to out you as a hitter just yet. Ill start at the very beginning for those following along at home.
Standing erect with your left arm held out straight ahead and level to the ground on a horizontal plane, your left arm forming a 90 degree angle at the shoulders. Your open left palm held vertical to the ground. Holding the shoulders still (zero out the pivot), move your left arm across your chest to about a 45 degree angle with the shoulders while maintaining the left palm vertical to the ground. Drop the left arm down onto the inclined plane while maintaining the left palms vertical to the ground alignment. (This is the check for Horizontal Hinging Alignment compliance at various places in startup BTW). Now place your right hand on your left wrist in a quasi golf like fashion. With the Right Forearm now in control of the left arm, the left arm inert, fan the right arm back to its 90 degree or Address position on the inclined plane. Go back and forth between Address and 45 degrees. The degree of fanning vs bending in the right arm, when assuming a real golf grip, is to some degree a function of the right elbow position. I think. Please advise.
Now go back to the 45 degree position again with the right hand on the left wrist , horizontal hinge alignment etc and from there Bend the Right Elbow and allow the left arm to rise to right shoulder height (Top) with the shoulder turn still zeroed out. Do this pump action style to feel the "Pickup", if you will.
So fanning and bending but when morphed in some manner forming a blended motion/action that takes the bent and frozen right wrist to Top. If you do this and then add a shoulder turn after the hands reach Top the right shoulder will take the hands back or "in". The "in" of "back, up and in", Three Dimensional Startup. Pickup for "in", Fan for "back", Shoulder turn for "in".
Let me know what you think. Not sure if this is correct or not. This is something I have been wondering about. Hence my appeal to Bambam and Yoda for more information regarding their post above. Not sure how this jibes with your notes about Plane Angles at Top and in Release etc. Im wondering if by adjusting the 45 degree angle up and down you are also adjusting the plane angle? The steeper the plane the more divergent the direction of the hands vs the shoulders assuming a flat back to the turned shoulder plane move anyways.
Cheers and feel free to rip this to shreds if you wish. This is from the incubator. But like I said, I just have to know how to get this done right. Im good for a while and then it goes away. Stopping at Top seems to help me out when I can do it.
I must admit that I dont understand how you can have a flat ish swing plane with only an inch or two of right elbow bend.
Ob
I feel really bad for you. An inch or two is all that is needed to cock the Right Wrist. You still have all of that elbow bend that you had at impact fix. Add both together and your right arm is bent at an approximately 90 degree angle.......
Standing erect with your left arm held out straight ahead and level to the ground on a horizontal plane, your left arm forming a 90 degree angle at the shoulders. Your open left palm held vertical to the ground. Holding the shoulders still (zero out the pivot), move your left arm across your chest to about a 45 degree angle with the shoulders while maintaining the left palm vertical to the ground. Drop the left arm down onto the inclined plane while maintaining the left palms vertical to the ground alignment. (This is the check for Horizontal Hinging Alignment compliance at various places in startup BTW). Now place your right hand on your left wrist in a quasi golf like fashion. With the Right Forearm now in control of the left arm, the left arm inert, fan the right arm back to its 90 degree or Address position on the inclined plane. Go back and forth between Address and 45 degrees. The degree of fanning vs bending in the right arm, when assuming a real golf grip, is to some degree a function of the right elbow position. I think. Please advise.
Ob
Dear Bewildered,
I understand what you’re saying. Now, don’t ever (unless it’s a trick shot) move your right elbow in a sawing motion again unless its during release. You are correct in believing that your right elbow bend needs to be about 90 degrees to match a swing plane on the elbow plane. Please see my previous post in this thread.
The Elbow is guided by the right shoulder and left arm. Where is it guided to (pointing behind you or downward)?..is the result of Wrist Action at Start-up,,Swivel or Single Action.
The Right Elbow is never in control of anything and especially the left arm. The left arm checkreins the right forearm from unbending(and thereby moving the hands away from the left shoulder) and the Right Shoulder controls the raising of the left arm……….
Extensor action take-away is a “bent over dumbbell shoulder fly” with a bent right arm. Ask your fitness instructor to show you how it’s done. Do one. Make a fist in your right hand. Grab the fist with your left hand and do a Dumbell bent over shoulder fly. See what happens to the Left Arm,, it raises magically.
The reason that your #3 pressure point is directly oppossed to the primary lever is because your Single Action Wrist Action caused it to be there when the Single Action Wrist Action is combined with Extensor Action during the Take-away and Backswing.
Extensor Action combined with my start-up swivel will move my right elbow to a position below the Hands when the shoulder raises the left arm.
Extensor Action: Do not Fan the elbow like a Chicken Wing by holding the right hand steady and the elbow flops around. Its kind of like holding the elbow stationary and fanning the right hand, except that the elbow moves up and down and away from your body (if you have the flexibility)
Linear Mode
