Homer assumed Separation to be at Low Point but what if it isnt?

[O.B.Left]

Yes. because #2 accumulator is still going down, until both arms streight. longer in front of LP longer arc. Except with zero (or fixed) #3 then balanced divot. (Scoop)

The Bear

Interesting point about #2 angle........awsome drawing there Daryl. What software do you use?

In regard to clubface implications for Separation prior to Low Point: Let me try this another way.

First read the first paragraph of 2-J-2 INSIDE OUT IMPACT. (Its a great read but for brevity Ill jump ahead to the main point.) "..........Though it is an "inside-out" Impact it is not an "inside-out" Stroke unless the Plane Line crosses the Line Of Flight as depicted in photo 10-5-E. (closed- closed).

Per 2-J-1 and 1-L-17 while the clubface is positioned in accordance with your Hinge Action at Fix (slightly open for Horizontal etc) at Separation the clubface must be square to the Target Line.

Now look at Picture 2-C-1 #3 and turn it upside down for the players perspective. Its not to scale obviously and assumes Separation at Low Point but lets imagine Separation prior to Low Point......Imagine Separation about where Impact is depicted......the clubface now square to the Target Line and THE INSIDE-OUT ANGLE OF APPROACH LIEING AHEAD OF SEPARATION.

Straight shot or draw?

[innercityteacher]

6 Iron. This illustration indicates Impact at 6" behind Low-Point. Ball probably separates at 5 1/2" and Clubhead enters the ground at 5" behind Low-Point. Dirt starts to show at 4" behind Low-Point. Divot depth is 3/8".

Question is: Does one side of Low-Point have more divot? Why?








Innercityteacher played 57 rounds of golf this summer and must have hit thousands of balls. Do you think he ever measured a single Divot?

Long ago, while caddying for a fella that made the US Amateur in 1994, and while I was first starting to golf, I competed in the annual Kiwanian/Civitan tournament in a small town in TN. The year before in that same tournament, I shot a 138.

Coming to the first tee in the "D" flight at 5:47am, the Civitan person stepped up and hit a terrific drive that did some impressive mountain climbing. (The Civitan's were the more competitive group in town, being primarily business people. They would often use very talented players in lower level flights so they could win everything in sight.) I congratulated the guy on his really great stroke.

I then got nervous, remembering my 138 the year before. I hit such a bad dropkick of a drive that I popped the ball up and was soaked in the early morning dew. I couldn't see. I was soaked and embarrassed.

That ended though, when the good player behind me mumbled that day, "Great, I got stuck playing some stupid cripple! " I knew what I wanted to do, suddenly, just not how to do it. So, I pretended I was my friend playing at the qualifier for the US Amateur. We had discussed Hogan's books and JM had a very simple 1/2 rhythm . So that's what I did. 1/2, 1/2, turn/turn, get it near the hole; don't quit!

I shot a 78 that day. The championship flight winner shot a 74, and no other flight winner shot lower than 79. I won a set of golf clubs, Cobra's, and several dozen golf balls, towels, umbrellas, gift certificates, etc. Until TGM though, I never came close to breaking 90 on a regular basis.

In getting ready for the 1994 US Amateur, JM took lessons from Loren Roberts's coach at the time. We would goof around seeing how far ahead of the ball strike we could set the tees and still hit them. Does that qualify as "measuring?"

TGM is the most technical instruction I have ever encountered, but I'm stuck sometimes on technical details given the shortness of my front leg and the artificial hip. My divots vary in size and shape depending on the day but are usually very steep to start as I come in at a pretty high angle. Of the thousands of balls I've hit, most have been off of rubberized grass on top of cement. I concentrate on ball flight, a lot.


Losing any kind of contest, or any kind of match is like death. It happens to everyone. The big questions are how will we become better after the loss or after the win (supernaturally). Better technique is easy to achieve with this website and with all the fine contributions from everyone, including yours, Daryl.

But getting a better soul is a much tougher challenge. I need supernatural help to do it. Honestly, it is a much bigger goal than winning a golf match, or golf accolades.

Golf is just so much fun for me having spent 9 months in body casts at Mayo Clinic and having had 11 hip operations over the years. It's just great fun to concentrate on such a demanding game. So I have set a challenging goal of beating you on a golf course I've never played. Impossible? Nope. Laws of gravity and physics operate everywhere for everyone. Hitting DOWN works everywhere for everyone, and thoughtfulness on a putting green is a beautiful thing.

Hopefully, we will have great fun in playing and improve our skills and our souls.

Patrick

[O.B.Left]

Ive lost count but Im thinking its:

3 people say draw.

1 says straight.

And a great story from City.

[Daryl]

Ive lost count but Im thinking its:

3 people say draw.

1 says straight.

And a great story from City.

Sounds like City wants sympathy strokes. He ain't gitt'n any.

Centrifugal Force will always Swivel the Clubface Square to the Longitudinal Center of Gravity of the Club. The Pivot must be designed and executed to coordinate that with Turn and Roll for Plane Line compliance. So, a Push or Pull can be a very well executed Stroke. Because Swingers use CF to Swivel the Clubface, Side Spin can be developed by changing the Plane Line/Target Line relationship and by moving the Ball Aft and Forward to coordinate Turn and Roll. This is ALWAYS an On-Plane Stroke. Because it's an On-Plane Stroke, they are named Fades and Draws. Cross line Strokes are named Slices and Hooks. Fades and Draws don't produce the high side spin Rates associated with Cross-line strokes combined with Clubface Alignment adjustments.

[O.B.Left]

Those are fantastic drawings Daryl. But Im not sure about the "fade" and "draw" in the first one. I know your coming from a True Swinging perspective , but the face angles seem wrong to me. The fade looks like a push fade to me........my head hurts...

Per 1-L-17 the ball leaves at right angles to the clubface at Separation. Side spin coming from any divergence in the clubhead path to the clubface angle.

The opposite of the old ball flight rules but now confirmed by Trackman.......which casts a peculiar light on a lot of past champion's own instruction books. Homer was adamant that they couldnt have actually done what they were teaching. A belief that didnt go over too well with his listeners but he insisted. And we now know he was right. To think that some of golfs greatest champions were manipulating the clubhead path and face angle perhaps subconsciously, in the direct opposite manner than that to which they subscribed theoretically makes for an interesting discussion.

Sean Foley has said that he likes his players to draw the ball with an open face angle of 3 degrees and then create the side spin with their arcs. So the ball starts right then curves back. He's probably got a Trackman on the range at OCN I'd imagine.

[Daryl]

Those are fantastic drawings Daryl. But Im not sure about the "fade" and "draw" in the first one. I know your coming from a True Swinging perspective , but the face angles seem wrong to me. The fade looks like a push fade to me........my head hurts...

Per 1-L-17 the ball leaves at right angles to the clubface at Separation. Side spin coming from any divergence in the clubhead path to the clubface angle.

The opposite of the old ball flight rules but now confirmed by Trackman.......which casts a peculiar light on a lot of past champion's own instruction books. Homer was adamant that they couldnt have actually done what they teaching. A belief that didnt go over too well with his listeners but he insisted. And we now know he was right. To think that some of golfs greatest champions were manipulating the clubhead path and face angle perhaps subconsciously, in the direct opposite manner than that to which they subscribed theoretically makes for an interesting discussion.

Sean Foley has said that he likes his players to draw the ball with an open face angle of 3 degrees and then create the side spin with their arcs. So the ball starts right then curves back. He's probably got a Trackman on the range at OCN I'd imagine.

Well, don't get a headache over it.

The Top drawing only shows the amount of clubface Roll with three different ball locations with an On-Plane Swing.

1. The Aft Ball Location would cause a Push
2. The Forward Ball Location would cause a Pull

When Opening or Closing the Plane Line in addition to the change in Ball Location............

7-2 For the “True” Swinger, “Opening” the Plane Line (10-5-D) until it is square to the Clubface alignment at the new “Aft” location, will produce a “Fade.” With the Ball moved Forward, “Closing” the Plane Line (10-5-E) square to the Clubface alignment at the new location, will produce a “Draw.” The Curve of the their paths, after the straightaway initial direction, will be proportional to the divergence of the Plane and Target Lines. Herein, “Path” terms (Ball Path etc.) refer to total Ball behavior, whether or not it remains straightaway. “Line” terms (“Target Line” etc.) refer to the straightaway direction of Aim.

As I understand "Trackman", it's a mathematical model. Data is collect by user input and radar. The data and results are illustrated in graphical format. The amount of data collected by the radar and the amount of this data available to the user may be very different. The calculations are also proprietary. But it's accuracy, I read, is almost perfect.

Trackman sets up behind the ball and doesn't "see" the actual Clubface-Ball contact because the clubhead obscures it. I'm not a mathematician and I couldn't begin to wonder how complex or simple the calculations might be although models to determine distance have been used by clubmakers for a long time now.

I don't know if Trackman measures ball flight and then calculates clubhead/face path and geometry or the other way around or a combination of both. What if you swung the club without a ball?

If Trackman uses any ball flight data to calculate clubhead path, face angle and swing plane, I can't be a "True Believer" in it's use as a training aid because I can't accept mystery. Besides, ball flight cause and effect are Apples and Swing Mechanics are Oranges. But I imagine it would make an excellent clubfitting tool and it does make for fun TV ball flight instant replays.

2A ...Roll of the ball on the face of an inclined striker does not account for all the action produced by such an impact, especially in imparting spin to the ball. When the direction of the compressing force does not pass exactly through the center of the ball, a spin will be imparted to the ball. It will rotate on the plane of a line drawn form the line of compression to a parallel center line.

I don't have the mental faculty to even wonder how complex that calculation would be.

[mb6606]

[size="4"][font="Comic Sans MS"][color="DarkOliveGreen"]I don't know if Trackman measures ball flight and then calculates clubhead/face path and geometry or the other way around or a combination of both. What if you swung the club without a ball?

If Trackman uses any ball flight data to calculate clubhead path, face angle and swing plane, I can't be a "True Believer" in it's use as a training aid because I can't accept mystery. Besides, ball flight cause and effect are Apples and Swing Mechanics are Oranges. But I imagine it would make an excellent clubfitting tool and it does make for fun TV ball flight instant replays.

TM is a tremendous teaching tool in the correct hands. The only way to hit a dead straight shot - no side spin (curve) is to have your path zero and club face zero at seperation. TM tracks the flight and spin of the ball very precisely.

[mb6606]

Sean Foley has said that he likes his players to draw the ball with an open face angle of 3 degrees and then create the side spin with their arcs. So the ball starts right then curves back. He's probably got a Trackman on the range at OCN I'd imagine.

Interesting - was this info in an article or interview?