I agree that you are correct with respect to pivot strokes (ala Ben Hogan's swing). However, I presume that DG is asking the question whether those triggers can trigger the downstroke while the hip action is reactive to the trigger action.
Jeff,
With all due respect to Shakespeare:
"Methinks thou dost presume too much."
Your position is that, reactive or otherwise, the Hips move first. Take it from me, DG has other ideas.
I have a student, who's buddies tell him to pull from the
top with the left arm. I tell him that this is incorrect, that
the left arm is inert with not much power. I recommend that
he start the downswing with shift/pivot/hip rotation. The
student says that he can't move the downswing with the
shift/hip turn, says it hurts his right hip. He insists that the
pull with the left arm makes him pivot.
How do I explain to the student that pulling with the left arm
does not make the pivot happen?
I agree - the mere intent to throw a stone doesn't guarantee that one will transfer weight to the left foot and perform an appropriate hip shift-rotation move. I believe that one has to engrain this pattern if one wants to use an arm-throw swing style. If the pelvis doesn't shift-rotate first, then I cannot understand how the stone skipping action (or golf swing) can occur in the correct manner as a underhand/side-throw action. When I practice a stone skipping action, my right arm immediately goes too far outwards (in an OTT manner) if I do not shift-rotate the pelvis near-instantaneously with the right arm throw action.
Yoda
If DG believes that the right arm throw action must occur without the pelvis moving first, then I would like to review his reasoning. In particular, I would like to learn how one can get the right elbow into the right side using a pitch elbow position, which I presume is necessary for a pitcher's (or swinger's) action. I presume that if the elbow is allowed to jut away from the body during a stone skipping action (because the pelvis doesn't shift-rotate) that it will cause the hand path to be out-to-in (rather than in-to-out) when it passes across the front of the body (passes through the impact zone). Feel free to correct me if my assumptions are incorrect.
I have a student, who's buddies tell him to pull from the
top with the left arm. I tell him that this is incorrect, that
the left arm is inert with not much power. I recommend that
he start the downswing with shift/pivot/hip rotation. The
student says that he can't move the downswing with the
shift/hip turn, says it hurts his right hip. He insists that the
pull with the left arm makes him pivot.
How do I explain to the student that pulling with the left arm
does not make the pivot happen?
The thing is that, for him, that thought may work perfectly. You have to remember that what the student is feeling, or whatever his trigger is, may not be what is ultimately happening. You also have to take into account his physical problem; if focusing on the hips hurts, then he probably shouldn't use that thought, at least until that problem can be addressed. Otherwise, his body will compensate. In his case, the THOUGHT of pulling with the left arm may be the thought he needs in order to get his pivot to pull the left arm properly. I've seen video of myself when my only thought was to pull with the left arm, and the actual first move was of the shift and turn of the hips.
The point is that, for some people, the pivot does respond to the intent to make a motion (don't make the mistake of thinking that "respond" in this instance means "to trail" or "come after"). For others, if they don't consciously engage the pivot first, then they'll have problems. You have to separate intent from what actually happens. If someone hits the ball well, with the proper sequencing of feet, knees, hips, trunk, shoulders, arms, hands, and club, then whatever they are focusing on (be it hips or arms/hands/club), is right for them.
Whatever the mental key, whether or not the swing is hand controlled or pivot controlled, a good and powerful swing is generally going to actually start from the ground up.
For this student, make sure that this thought is actually hurting his swing, before changing it. Whatever trigger he uses, whatever feel he cultivates, is correct if it results in the correct action.
Let mechanics produce feel, and let feel reproduce, you know?
Bigwill, Thank you very much for your well thought out
responce to may question about my student. You spent
a lot of time with a solution for me. My thinking has been
mostly along the lines that you mentioned. Most of the
problems, the student has had with pulling with left arm
has been over-the-top moves and/or not getting off the
right side. He watched Yodas swing and felt that Yoda
stayed mostly on the left side on the backswing and therefor
figures that by trying to immulate Yoda that he does not
need to make a shift to the left on the downswing. I try
to explain that Yoda does favor the left side on the backswing
but that does not mean that Yoda does not move left on
the downswing with a hip turn. You are certainly correct
in that a students preception is a big key.
Thanks again, Donn
Bigwill, Thank you very much for your well thought out
responce to may question about my student. You spent
a lot of time with a solution for me. My thinking has been
mostly along the lines that you mentioned. Most of the
problems, the student has had with pulling with left arm
has been over-the-top moves and/or not getting off the
right side. He watched Yodas swing and felt that Yoda
stayed mostly on the left side on the backswing and therefor
figures that by trying to immulate Yoda that he does not
need to make a shift to the left on the downswing. I try
to explain that Yoda does favor the left side on the backswing
but that does not mean that Yoda does not move left on
the downswing with a hip turn. You are certainly correct
in that a students preception is a big key.
Thanks again, Donn
No problem. I'm usually asking for advice/clarification on these boards. It's cool that I could contribute something helpful for once
@dkerby - I think the best way to teach the pivot's role in swinging the left arm is to swing the club left arm only.
Keeping the head stationary, start by slowly swinging the club a few feet back and forth. Gradually lengthen until you are making repeated full rhythmical swings.
Now try to make the club go faster through impact. It will immediately become evident how to use the pivot to accelerate the club. You simply cannot do it without harnessing the pivot and the left side to power the flail - loading and unloading the "gyroscope".
After getting used to that, have him hit shots left arm only with a sand wedge. That will teach him how to add the all important "downward" element of impact.
As far as the pain in the right hip goes, it might be swing related. I had pain in my right hip because I tried to immobilize it to combat a slide. When my pivot improved (and I allowed my right hip to clear) I had no more pain, and no more "over the top".
Anyways, these are my personal experiences, not tried and true teaching techniques as I'm simply an amateur. Hope it helps anyways!
Bigwill, Thank you very much for your well thought out
responce to may question about my student. You spent
a lot of time with a solution for me. My thinking has been
mostly along the lines that you mentioned. Most of the
problems, the student has had with pulling with left arm
has been over-the-top moves and/or not getting off the
right side. He watched Yodas swing and felt that Yoda
stayed mostly on the left side on the backswing and therefor
figures that by trying to immulate Yoda that he does not
need to make a shift to the left on the downswing. I try
to explain that Yoda does favor the left side on the backswing
but that does not mean that Yoda does not move left on
the downswing with a hip turn. You are certainly correct
in that a students preception is a big key.
Thanks again, Donn
Donn . . . . Tell the dude to go to the top and stop. Have him spin open and show him how the club shoots out over the plane. Then take him to the top and push his hips left and show him how the club doesn't fly out. He has to learn how to move his hips laterally down the stance line. If he wants to spin open you could flatten out his arm swing and get him to take his hands IN more too. That way when he spins his hands have farther to travel to get out and over the plane. Ultimately . . . gotta go left with the hips. Maybe stick a shaft/dowel in the ground at an angle a few inches out side his left foot and say "Try to make your hips go to this dowel." I struggle with this myself.
Ultimately . . . gotta go left with the hips. Maybe stick a shaft/dowel in the ground at an angle a few inches out side his left foot and say "Try to make your hips go to this dowel."
Ultimately . . . gotta go left with the hips. Maybe stick a shaft/dowel in the ground at an angle a few inches out side his left foot and say "Try to make your hips go to this dowel."
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