Philly...
Hinge action has the feel of the entire Left arm flying wedge executing a hinge action around the Pin whilie controlling the Clubface Motion...whereas... swivel rotates the shaft around the sweetspot with the lower portion of the arm independent of the hinge action...When you come down ...I'll show you...
Hinge Action - Clubface...
Swivel - Shaft Rotation around Sweetspot
AS
I was just clarifying- I don't assume anyone is necessarily wrong- you might completely understand it and just post in a manner that doesn't imply that, or the reader(me) may not understand the context of the post, or be incorrect, etc. You'll have to clarify what you meant when you posted "Hinge Action - Clubface" and "Swivel - Shaft Rotation around Sweetspot". My issue was you were relating the Shaft Rotation around the Sweetspot (Longitudinal Center of Gravity) strictly with Swivel, as if it didn't happen outside of the Swivel, when in fact it's happening during the entire swing. That is, whenever there is any face/shaft rotation- in any degree- then that shaft rotation is rotating around the longitudinal center of gravity.
In regards to "are you really sure I'm wrong on this one???" I think the best way to answer that in any given situation is just to present, describe, and clarify your/our comments and see where we logically end up. After all, it's an opportunity to learn and that's the great thing about forums- so I would love to have you clarify what you were saying and I say that sincerely and not sarcastically.
With all due respect ...Are you really sure I'm wrong on this one???.....Lynn personally taught me the shaft rotation around the longitudinal center of gravity(Sweetspot Plane) and it's differentation from Hinge Action.....
As a matter of fact Philly ...you and 6B were there when I got up in front of the room at Pine Needles as Lynn discussed this very subject...
Dave...
I didnt go into it. I think Mike's point is that - swivel is a rotation of the hands into impact (or impact prep if you prefer) versus being pulled by LCG. I didnt go into it because it wasnt the intention of my initial post.
I am sorry...I dont recall exactly what Lynn said regarding this! But I am with Mike - separate concepts.
And Mike...
Is swivel a rotation of the forearms or hands? Just kidding.
I learned from alot of people initially - Randy, Chuck, Eddie, Todd, jaminid (Jason - and man would he love this forum!), etc and then eventually others -PB!!! (where the hell is he - man, he knew the book!). And I still do.
But I learned the most from Mike. The great thing about this forum is - though Lynn may have one perspective...others that know the book quite well and arent too far removed from Homer have another. Mike is one of them. So...
Its good to get other perspectives from 'knowledgables' (is that even a word) of the book. Just a comment.
Treat....Neal Lancaster, PGA Tour Veteran...a visit to the Creek
2-F
Regardless of where the Clubshaft and the Clubhead are joined together, it always feels as if they are joined at the Sweetspot - the longitudinal center of gravity, the line of pull of Centrifugal Force. So there is a "Clubshaft" Plane and a "Sweetspot", or "Swing', Plane. But herein, unless otherwise noted,"Plane Angle" and "Plane Line" always refer to the Center of Gravity application. Study 2-N. except during impact, the Clubshaft can travel on, or to- and from, either Plane because Clubshaft rotation must be around the Sweetspot - not vice versa. So Clubhead "Feel" is Clubhead lag Pressure(6-C) and is a Golfing Imperative. (2-0). If Lag pressure is lost the Hands tend to start the hosel(intead of the sweetspot) toward Impact - that mysterious "Shank". When in doubt, "Turn" the Clubface so both the Clubshaft and the Sweetspot will be on the same Plane at Start Down. Both Planes always pass though the Lag Pressure Point. Study 6-C-2-A.
Annikan,
Let me cover most of the issues that I see and if needed and as time allows we can clean up any remaining issues on this.
Using the quote from 2-F and relating it to our discussion.
1) I'll give you credit that Homer's using the longitudinal center of gravity and sweetspot to mean the same thing. Whereas I was further defining the sweetspot as that point on the face of the club where the longitudinal center of gravity passes through (one point on the line of longitudinal center of gravity). So why your original post was more in line with Homer's writing and correct in that regard- I still prefer my distinction and clarification, as his could infer that if you hit the ball half way up the shaft with the Longitudinal Center of Gravity (LCG)-Sweetspot- that you would miss the ball with the shaft but passed through (hit) the ball with the LCG.
2) In regards to your original post "Hinge Action - Clubface" "Swivel - Clubshaft rotating around sweetspot". Again, strictly from the 2-F quote- Homer's saying the Clubshaft is rotating around the sweetspot throughout the swing.
Two othe clarifying issues in regards to the 2-F quote and your original post.
1) If you or anyone is thinking that his comment regarding "Turn" has ANYTHING to do with Swivel, then they are mistaken. The only similarity would be that Swivel requires a turned position of the clubface, and in his 2-F quote he is saying if you're shanking it - because you lost lag pressure, that if during start down, you turned the clubface so that the shaft and sweetspot were on the same plane- that if you did throw it- i.e. threw the shaft instead of the sensing and controlling the sweetspot with lag, that in that case you would also be throwing the sweetspot at the ball by default and you wouldn't shank from that situation.
2) Again, strictly speaking from his writing method- you have a point on one issue- in that he talks about the shaft rotating around the sweetspot "Except during impact"- which is the period of Hinge Action. However, that only makes sense in a very narrow context- impact is just one part of the overall circle- and nothing different or mysterious happens separately at impact compared to just before or after it.
In summary, I stand by my original post. In addition, your follow-up post added the quote from the book- but I wasn't clear if you were making additional points or what additional arguments you were making- however, I took the liberty to assume a couple of potential ones that I saw.
Last edited by Mike O : 11-05-2005 at 12:37 PM.
Reason: minor grammer corrections
2-F
But herein, unless otherwise noted,"Plane Angle" and "Plane Line" always refer to the Center of Gravity application. Study 2-N.
I see people often who think of the 'plane' as meaning the clubSHAFT. It is very important to understand the above is what Homer is talking about when he mentions 'plane'.
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
I see people often who think of the 'plane' as meaning the clubSHAFT. It is very important to understand the above is what Homer is talking about when he mentions 'plane'.
Thank you for your distintion and clarification!!!
Clubshaft can travel on, or to- and from, either Plane because Clubshaft rotation must be around the Sweetspot - not vice versa.
So what is the means by which the shaft can travel on, or to and from?
Does it differ for swinging and hitting...If so...Why and How
I would love to hear what Dr. Collards has to say!!!!
BTW there is a Shaft Plane and a Sweetspot plane so the people who are referring to the Clubshaft are referring to the visible plane but Homer was referring to the invisible sweetspot plane
There are many planes.....There is not a "The PLANE" situation here...
AS
Last edited by annikan skywalker : 11-05-2005 at 03:48 PM.
BTW there is a Shaft Plane and a Sweetspot plane so the people who are referring to the Clubshaft are referring to the visible plane but Homer was referring to the invisible sweetspot plane
There are many planes.....There is not a "The PLANE" situation here...
AS
philly - I am talking about the 'invisible' plane - which boils down to the plane of 'motion', of forces in the swing. My personal take is that it is far better to simply monitor the path and plane of PP#1 during the entire motion, than to worry about the clubshaft, or to a certain extent, even the sweetspot.
The club only knows what the HANDS tell it and the ball only knows what the club tells it. By monitoring the path/plane of the hands, the pressure points in the hands, you don't need to worry about the shaft or sweetspot because they will 'follow' what the hands dictate.
Annikan - I disagree a bit that there is no 'the' plane because if you have maintained balance during the entire motion, chances are the hands, the pressure points, will have effectively stayed on a single plane of motion. They will 'orbit' the center of balance.
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
Just kidding.
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