Grooves on Driver face

[dcg1952]

Wasn't sure where to ask this, but figured the equipment post might be a good start. Certainly we need grooves on our irons. But do grooves on the face of a driver have any functional value or just for cosmetics??

[Rob2197]

Wasn't sure where to ask this, but figured the equipment post might be a good start. Certainly we need grooves on our irons. But do grooves on the face of a driver have any functional value or just for cosmetics??

Not sure but you can still get some Non-OEM drivers without grooves. I remember Yonex made some OEM drivers several years ago that had no grooves. The lack of grooves was supposed to cut down spin drastically and therefore be more accurate and longer. But spin is a necessary component in distance. I remember a lot of them in Play Again Sports because people were getting rid of them citing lack of loft and distance.

I think when probably one of the greatest teachers (Homer Kelly in TGM) and one of the greatest players (Jack Nicklaus in Golf My Way) say that every shot (even the driver) needs at least some amount of backspin to create any loft, that it's a good bet that the concept is correct.

[ThinkingPlus]

Not sure but you can still get some Non-OEM drivers without grooves. I remember Yonex made some OEM drivers several years ago that had no grooves. The lack of grooves was supposed to cut down spin drastically and therefore be more accurate and longer.

Marketing and hype. The grooves on a driver are primarily cosmetic and tradition. Angle of attack at impact, mass distribution of the head, and shaft tip dynamics influence spin off the driver (other things as well I am sure). In fact most of the long drive guys use drivers with no grooves. It allows them to get thinner faces without caving the faces in.

[golfmachine]

IMO grooves are not necessary on a driver. Even on drivers with grooves you often find no grooves in the center of the clubface.

I play an SMT 455 and my daughter hits an SMT Nemesis - these clubheads have won multiple world long drive championships and have no grooves.view my driver head here

[Rob2197]

Marketing and hype. The grooves on a driver are primarily cosmetic and tradition. Angle of attack at impact, mass distribution of the head, and shaft tip dynamics influence spin off the driver (other things as well I am sure). In fact most of the long drive guys use drivers with no grooves. It allows them to get thinner faces without caving the faces in.

I agree totally. The grooves on a driver are so thin that they can't make much difference. However, spin is needed to get any type of trajectory it's just that this spin is created differently by drivers than by irons. Drivers have bulge and roll influencing the direction of the compression on a ball, irons do not so they need grooves. In fact, an iron with debris filling the grooves significantly affects spin and distance.

[Rob2197]

According to Ralph Maltby (Golfworks), there was no difference in the performance of two sets of irons he built -- one with grooves and the other with no grooves.

On the other hand, I know that Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer believe that square grooves give more spin on wedges than v-grooves.

Perhaps Billy McDonald of Henry Griffits could give us some insight.

I've seen testing done on it. I wish I could remember where, sorry. It was pretty substantial though. I think like 7-10% distance loss and as much as 15% spin loss on some irons.

It just makes since that if you are striking down with a descending blow and the ball actually rolls up the face of the iron that the grooves have to have some influence on that striking and rolling action. I know a lot of pros believe that square grooves give more spin and that many often have their clubs regrooved.

[Rob2197]

I think this is it

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...5/ai_114373159

[Martee]

The removal of grooves from the driver was to allow for a stronger face as they made them thinner.

Grooves themselve add very little spin. In Search of the Perfect Swing, they discovered that the smooth face club actually had longer distances, (5i about 5 yds, 9i about 2 yds) which appear to be a result of the less spin on the smooth face.

Now out of the garbage, the biggie was that the grooves allowed for the ball to make more direct contact with the actual club surface.

The square groove arguement I thought really ended up centering on the width of the grooves cause it was creating a surface which dug into the balls surface far more than other clubfaces.

[Rob2197]

The removal of grooves from the driver was to allow for a stronger face as they made them thinner.

Grooves themselve add very little spin. In Search of the Perfect Swing, they discovered that the smooth face club actually had longer distances, (5i about 5 yds, 9i about 2 yds) which appear to be a result of the less spin on the smooth face.

Now out of the garbage, the biggie was that the grooves allowed for the ball to make more direct contact with the actual club surface.
The square groove arguement I thought really ended up centering on the width of the grooves cause it was creating a surface which dug into the balls surface far more than other clubfaces.

I'm sorry but IMO anything that digs into the surface of the ball can definitely affect spin. I think everyone knows that spin does effect distance, if not then launch monitors wouldn't care to monitor it.

[Martee]

I'm sorry but IMO anything that digs into the surface of the ball can definitely affect spin. I think everyone knows that spin does effect distance, if not then launch monitors wouldn't care to monitor it.

Well according to the USGA testing, irons smooth faced and groove can impart equal amounts of backspin. Noted by the USGA is that smooth faced surface may be less more difficult to accomplish or be consistent with, but none the less can do the same.

Spin has more direct effect if I recall correctly on trajectory and curvature. Obviously this will effect distance but there must be other factors to consider.

The notes in the In Search of the Perfect Swing was

5 iron smooth /grooved
avg speed 144.7 / 144.8
avg spin (revs per sec) 77 / 84
avg angle of projection 12-8 / 12-6
avg carry yds 155 / 154
avg run 31 / 27
avg overall distance 186 / 181

7 iron and 9 iron had very similar results except the spin rates and angles were just about the same. Distances were within a yard or so.

I realize it seems to be logical that the grooves should add, but in reality they do very little unless you are in the garbage, and that is where they allow for the water, etc to get out of the way of the ball to meet the clubface.