Laid Off Vs. Across the Line

[lagster]

I saw some T.V. people today commenting on different players at the TOP or END. One mentioned that Bo Van Pelt was "laid off", but still got the club in a good place coming down. The other conversation had to do with V.J. Singh. They seemed to think that the reason he is struggeling now is because he has the club "laid off" at the TOP or End.

It seems like that the T.V. guys usually talk like the "laid off" position is a poor position. They rarely mention the "across the line" people as even having a problem.

Do you think there is some merit to what they are saying, or do they really not understand what an ON PLANE club and shaft should look like?

As I understand PLANE in this regard... the club should point either to the line the ball is on, or be parallel to that line.
If the club is not PARRALEL TO THE GROUND at the END, then it will appear to many to look "laid off". If the club goes BEYOND PARALLEL TO THE GROUND, it should be "across the line".

Now... according to this way of describing plane... Nick Price is "across the line" when his left arm is parallel to the ground on the BACKSWING. Raymond Floyd, at about the same place, is "laid off". At the Top or End... Jack Nicklaus, Bobby Jones, John Daly, Davis Love, Larry Nelson, and probably about at least 80% of tour players are "across the line". Ben Hogan(especially with his irons), and Peter Jacobsen, along with a few others appear "laid off" when they finish the backswing.



Discuss when these positions are OK, and when they are actually a problem. For example, I remember Mr. Yoda saying that Larry Nelson's "across the line" position at the finish of his backswing was actually OK for him, since he is a HITTER.

[12 piece bucket]

I saw some T.V. people today commenting on different players at the TOP or END. One mentioned that Bo Van Pelt was "laid off", but still got the club in a good place coming down. The other conversation had to do with V.J. Singh. They seemed to think that the reason he is struggeling now is because he has the club "laid off" at the TOP or End.

It seems like that the T.V. guys usually talk like the "laid off" position is a poor position. They rarely mention the "across the line" people as even having a problem.

Do you think there is some merit to what they are saying, or do they really not understand what an ON PLANE club and shaft should look like?

As I understand PLANE in this regard... the club should point either to the line the ball is on, or be parallel to that line.
If the club is not PARRALEL TO THE GROUND at the END, then it will appear to many to look "laid off". If the club goes BEYOND PARALLEL TO THE GROUND, it should be "across the line".

Now... according to this way of describing plane... Nick Price is "across the line" when his left arm is parallel to the ground on the BACKSWING. Raymond Floyd, at about the same place, is "laid off". At the Top or End... Jack Nicklaus, Bobby Jones, John Daly, Davis Love, Larry Nelson, and probably about at least 80% of tour players are "across the line". Ben Hogan(especially with his irons), and Peter Jacobsen, along with a few others appear "laid off" when they finish the backswing.



Discuss when these positions are OK, and when they are actually a problem. For example, I remember Mr. Yoda saying that Larry Nelson's "across the line" position at the finish of his backswing was actually OK for him, since he is a HITTER.

Annikan Grandmaster of Chapter 10 Skywalker had a great post on this a while back. He gave several great reasons as to WHY one would be "across the line." I think the 4 main culprits are 1. a Start-Up that doesn't have enough UP e.g. under plane 2. a Right Forearm that is ROLLED at Top and not TURNED to the Plane 3. Too deep shoulder turn 4. A COCKED Right Wrist.

Not Yoda, but I think the reason L. Nelson is "across-the-line" is because he is a hitter employing the surrogate 10-5-E Plane Line (Cross-Line Angle of Approach).

And another thing . . . a person that has an End at Top, the club SHOULD have a laid-off look if it is pointing at the geometric Plane Line.

[birdie_man]

As I understand PLANE in this regard... the club should point either to the line the ball is on, or be parallel to that line.
If the club is not PARRALEL TO THE GROUND at the END, then it will appear to many to look "laid off". If the club goes BEYOND PARALLEL TO THE GROUND, it should be "across the line".

My thoughts:

"Laid off"

-over-Turn of the clubface in backswing....underplane
-backswing has not gone to parallel (as you said above)
-Arched left wrist (??)
-camera aimed too much at the belly

...

"Across the line"

-backswing goes beyond parallel
-Double-Cocked...flying right elbow
-camera aimed too much at the player's back

[strav]

My thoughts:

"Laid off"

-over-Turn of the clubface in backswing....underplane
-backswing has not gone to parallel (as you said above)
-Arched left wrist (??)
-camera aimed too much at the belly

...

[IMG][/IMG]

Hank Haney's definition is:
"Your club is laid off when it is behind your hands at any point in the swing"


From the photos you can see what he means but what would be a better description?

[jim_0068]

[IMG][/IMG]

Hank Haney's definition is:
"Your club is laid off when it is behind your hands at any point in the swing"


From the photos you can see what he means but what would be a better description?

there is ABSOLUTELY NO FREAKN' WAY you can go from the position 2nd to last to the last.

[strav]

there is ABSOLUTELY NO FREAKN' WAY you can go from the position 2nd to last to the last.

Don't think this is meant to be a sequence - rather posed positions for demonstration purposes only showing how the club can be laid off at various stages in different swings. He makes the point that no matter where the club is 'laid off' the shot pattern will be the same i.e. blocked to the right unless he flips his hands through impact and if he uses his hands too much he might hit a duck hook. Either way - no consistency.
Would you agree?

[EdZ]

As a an aside, the second picture is a VERY common move and one of the single biggest reasons that people can't square up the face - a bad takeaway that is both too inside and, ironically, overplane, or 'laid off'

Keeping the clubhead 'outside' the hands until hip high is the key to fixing this.

[birdie_man]

Don't think this is meant to be a sequence - rather posed positions for demonstration purposes only showing how the club can be laid off at various stages in different swings.

Why would he start at that address position tho?

[lagster]

Many people in the "LAID OFF position at the TOP actually come over the top with a steep downswing plane. I have seen a few get into the Position Mr. Haney shows in the last picture, but not that many.

Actually... most people that take the club way inside going back, are Cross-the-line at the TOP or End, and those that take the club back more on the opposite extreme, may get LAID-OFF.

GET THINGS JUST RIGHT... SIMULTANEOUSLY UP, BACK, AND IN... AND YOU GET THE CLUB IN GOOD SHAPE AT THE TOP OR END... unless other things done by the hands, elbow, wrists, etc. jump in there to mess it up.

[strav]

Why would he start at that address position tho?

This is where he says you should start but 'If your hands
are an inch too far forward you're already an inch laid off.
So move your hands back until they are directly in front of the zipper on your pants.’
He prefers a perfect isosceles triangle in front of the body.