Croker / Martin Green TGM hitters?

[Peter Croker]

[quote=lagster]I have heard Peter Croker's swing analysis by a G.S.E.D.. He says this is a SWING. His talk about PUSHING, is relating more to Extensor Action.


Dear Lagster,

In the swing analysis done by Paul Hart (G.S.E.D.)I give my "preferred motion."
However for someone starting out into learning to swing a golf club, a shorter "Hitting" motion has less moving parts.

To me it is an evolution. The more skilled you become, the more relaxed you can make your muscles and the more the centrifugal force can take effect.

Alignments are first and then power follows. That is my take on it at this point in time.

Kind Regards,

Peter

[annikan skywalker]

Straight from the "horses mouth"...pushing the collar or pulling the wagon...hmmm....Thanks Peter ...for your insight and correction...

[ColtsFan]

Thanks Peter, I really like your site btw. I'd heard you and Martin Green had worked together for a while, and I just got his "Push for Perfection" video. The cart and the horse analogy that Anikan mentioned and Martin talked about in his video have cleared things up.

Im sticking to the TGM "swing model" after some great success I had a couple nights ago keeping a FLW and ending up in the "Chanpions at Impact" pictures here on Lynns site.

I was amazed after just taking a real easy, smooth swing how far and straight I hit the ball. Just concentrated on an exagerated FLW and keeping my head over my right knee at impact. IM SOLD ON TGM!

[6bmike]

Dear Mike,

Firstly I believe you are referring to me, and it is "Croker" - non "Crocker" (that was Kojak's sidekick)

Secondly you must not have reviewed much of the Croker Golf System.
Perhaps a look at this 24 Component Analysis by Paul Hart (G.S.E.D.) of CGS will help you understand how I use both left and right hand actively in the swing.(and you can Hit or Swing using our System.)
When the alignments are known and understood, the use of both hands in a "PUSHING" orientation is the entrance point to building Control first and Power second.

What CGS has defined is the detailed definitions of the basics of an "uncompensating" golf swing.
Once you have positively identified these basics and their alignments, you can decide whether you want to swing or hit.
It is my belief from my study of Homers works that the alignments can be the same for both.
It is my preference at my stage in my golfing life that I can hit it further and with much less stress on my back and other body parts, if I swing (ie: maximize the rotational forces in the swing motion and use my muscle thrust to maintain structure and move the club on the correct path both back and down, out, and through the ball to a balanced finish.
I appreciate your interest in wanting to define what CGS does, but I would recommend a thorough study first before making such statements as done here.
Homer had it right when he stresses the need for "Educated Hands."
Tom Tomasello was right too when he talked about the value of opinions.

The Croker Golf System acknowledges Homer Kelley for his great work in giving us a Plan of Action - "The 24 Components."

CGS has defined precisely 24 Components that align one to the next and when drilled into a complete motion, allow a golfer to have a)CONTROL, b) POWER, and c) CONSISTENCY.

CGS does have a "preferred pattern" from "A to Z"!

Do you know what it is?

I look forward to your researched answer and the questions that will follow.

Kind regards,
Peter

You do mention the right arm but you never talked about the right hand. I was going to go back and view the Hart series to double check but I see you are now selling them along with the Lynn Blake version of the TT tapes that Delaware Golf provided this forum and the video “letters” from Lee D. They are still free here, I think.

I watched the series a few weeks back and was surprised that with all the right side talk that the right hand wasn’t mentioned. Really. But I didn’t get to double check. I don’t remember you talking about its FBL condition or about the Flying Wedges, etc. You do talk about a sweep- early release of the right arm on the downswing. A throw from the top. Evershed never stops talking about the condition of the right hand and wrist- that bent sucker is his god.


I believe that pull is a left side fling (I can propel a Frisbee with a pull and NEVER push anything) using centrifugal force- pure Newton and a push is a right side drive exploding down off a solid pivot (base).

You cannot push a pull. You cannot pull a push.

Someone can teach a hybrid - a right arm that “swings” moving the center off the left shoulder and onto the right arm elbow. As Homer said you would need loose wrists to put some kind of whirl into the swing. But I think the right arm works best when it straightens through low point- a Hit.

I prefer Homer’s Swing and Hit components. Let Mother Nature Whirl and Blur or the let the Wheaties and Wonder Bread- that built my muscles- do its thing and smash dimples to China. Just my preference. Not saying what you teach is wrong. I know it is a fine golf stroke. It took Lynn Blake to take the Hit pattern that Homer taught and teach it beyond a punch shot or specialty shot TT talks about. It is so different then a Swing, either a pull swing or a push right arm swing.

Options? Plenty. Some work better than others.
Alignments? They never change. On plane is on plane. The Flying Wedges are the same and so forth.
Changes? Whirl or smash. Are you pulling or pushing? Is the pivot rotational or a solid foundation to push off of?

[birdie_man]

good stuff guys, all of you...I gotta tell you guys last night I think I had a TGM Ephifany that will probably make this Leslie King stuf a moot point. I feel feel like shelving all the books and print out I have (King, E Jones, B Jones, Hogans 5 Lessons, Bertholy SC101, Armour, Flick, et al)
and track down a 7th Edition YB and Brians flipper video. I cant lose what I found last night or be pretty bummed

What I did over 3 holes was just take that reverse K (TGM impact fix?) set up position with an 8 iron, took a nice full turn, came back down with my rt. shoulder tracing, as close as I could, down the target line. From there I just tried to mimmick as much as I could those photos of imapact postions in Lynn's gallery, I think its "Chamions at Impact"(head back, flat to slightly bowed left wrist, shoulders square hips open)

What happened was incredible, Ive never hit irons that crisp, with that kind of unbelievable trajectory in my life. All with a pretty swing. Im sold guys...Where is the best place to get a 7th edition or would a 6th edt. be ok for newbie?
Thanks for your input on King, Green and Croker...

Great man.

Those sound, to me, like a couple good keys you have there....Impact oriented...

All I can say is if you have a decent stroke....build upon it rather than trying to find "another one"....

This even is in TGM....(along with a lot of advice like this)....but even then it's tough to do all these things right (I mean learn a swing) when there's SO many things to pay attention to.

Dunno....just wanted to advize of that....cause there's a lot of info there to "get lost in" (at least for a while...you'd get thru it eventually....esp. with an AI)....

-setup (always go back to this...as much precision and understanding as possible)
-trained pivot
-educated hands
-3 Imparatives (how do YOU repeat them best?)

[DOCW3]

Mr. Croker (Peter)~

If there is one thing that distinguishes the CGS, for me it is the possibility of eliminating the hip slide in the transition and the coordination requirements that tax the skills of the "average amateur." If I understand your setup correctly, the impact spine tilt is preset at address and the move forward is more "rotational." A key to all of this is understanding how you define the pivot??

DRW

[ColtsFan]

Birdie,

Exactly, the jumping around with swings is only impeding my improvement. Im going to get the 7th edt. before I see Lynn or Brian only because I feel like after studying multiple swings theories I could probably figure out a lot of the so called technical stuff after multiple readings.

Plus if Im going to hang out on this site I need to know the language, so to speak.
Thanks again for your input,youve been helpful....

[Peter Croker]

Mr. Croker (Peter)~

If there is one thing that distinguishes the CGS, for me it is the possibility of eliminating the hip slide in the transition and the coordination requirements that tax the skills of the "average amateur." If I understand your setup correctly, the impact spine tilt is preset at address and the move forward is more "rotational." A key to all of this is understanding how you define the pivot??

DRW

Dear Doc,

You are spot on here! Hip slide is not necessary in any large degree when you preset and pivot as we recommend. There is much less chance of back and hip stress too!

Our Pivot Precision video download nails it best!

When the set up has the axis tilt in such an alignment to have the left side (from the hip down) in a vertical condition(our doorway drill for the stance and to help monitor the backswing pivot of the hips) - the hip rotation in the backswing has the right hip turning through the right heel and back in towards the left heel(Ben Hogan did this well). The right knee remains flexed and there is a spring loading of the base from the hips down.
With this coiling action, the left knee motion in the backswing is out in the direction of the left toes. This stops drifting towards the back foot.
This helps the spine tilt remain unchanged through the backswing and at transition, the left hip clears easily and rotates fully and attempts to unwind through the straightening left leg and back into the right foot (similar to a baseball player hitting a home run. At impact they are clearly hitting off and away from their rear foot.)
The releasing hands, arms and club act as a counter balance and the net result is some forward motion of the hips in most cases, but as we say "Shift happens!"
Words are not as good a svideo or "hands on" for understanding precisely what we mean, but this is my best shot at describing in words what the Pivot of the hips does and how to minimize hip slide and therefore the need for a higher skill level and timing.

I appreciate the interest in our TGM Pattern and I am keen to have a personal session with Lynne to share of 24 Component Definitions with "hands on" so that the best understandings can happen.

Kind Regards,
Peter Croker

[Yoda]

I appreciate the interest in our TGM Pattern and I am keen to have a personal session with Lynn to share of 24 Component Definitions with "hands on" so that the best understandings can happen.

Kind Regards,
Peter Croker

Thank you for posting, Peter.

I respect your life-long work in Golf as a player, instructor and knowledgeable proponent of TGM. Most of all, I respect your non-confrontational means of moving golf forward.



I am sure our paths will cross one day, and I truly am looking forward to it.

[strav]

Thank you for posting, Peter.

I respect your life-long work in Golf as a player, instructor and knowledgeable proponent of TGM. Most of all, I respect your non-confrontational means of moving golf forward.



I am sure our paths will cross one day, and I truly am looking forward to it.

Golf – originally a game for gentlemen. Great to see there are still instructors naturally inclined that way!!!