Just plane confused!

[Mike O]

Boys, boys,boys..........


I innocently stepped into a Mike O - Bucket Boy crossfire. It was an accident. Sort of.
Mike, Please let me know when you plan to cross the great state of Ohio. I would be pleased to extend some Midwest hospitality.

Buck, You and I shall have our day.........Cold cuts or otherwise.

UPP in snowy but about to melt Ohio

Not so easy UPP- Bucket and I aren't letting you go from our grips- your innocent mistep is going to cost you big time!

[Mike O]

[quote=Mathew;50443]
Let me ask some very simple easy questions - Forget your 7 example - Just take the primary lever assembly and forget everything else....
The question is does the left shoulder move upwards from impact and through low point? - Yes that is a fact. YES - I agree. Let me add that I'd say in most players the left shoulder would move upwards when the hands are a little below hip high on the downswing. So the clubhead could be or probably hasn't dropped below hip high on the downswing at the start of the left shoulder moving up.
Since the left shoulder moving upwards does this mean the whole primary lever assembly is also moving upwards? - Yes- this is a fact. NO- I don't see it that way- see my understanding above. But if we keep discussing this I should be able to understand your point or you mine.
Since the whole primary lever assembly moves upwards and the clubhead is a part of the primary lever assembly - does this move the clubhead upwards too? - Yes this is a fact. NO- Again I don't see that but hopefully with my answers here - we can get to "common ground".

Since the left shoulder is continually moving upwards mean that this effect is only going to make the clubhead orbit have its lowest point prior to the point it passes the left shoulder when viewed directly from the front - Yes , Yes, YES.... NO- That's why I thought the "7" example was a good one to show my perspective. Also, If you are saying that when the left shoulder moves upward that the clubhead moves upward- then I'd say that with that logic - then the clubhead would need to start moving upward when it was halfway down - on the downswing.
QUOTE]

Matthew,
See my comments above. Let me know what you think.

And why is it that no one thinks I'm funny? Gotcha- Cause I'm not! Well that's not going to stop me from harassing UPP and Bucket!!

[Uppndownn]

Since the left shoulder moving upwards does this mean the whole primary lever assembly is also moving upwards? - Yes- this is a fact. NO- I don't see it that way- see my understanding above. But if we keep discussing this I should be able to understand your point or you mine.

I do not think so either. The primary lever assembly is staying level. The left shoulder rises but the right shoulder is going downplane. Then as the swing gets to both arms straight, that approximates low point assuming minimal throwaway....

How is that? Too simplistic?

UPP in snowy but warming Ohio

[Mathew]

"The question is does the left shoulder move upwards from impact and through low point? - Yes that is a fact." -YES - I agree.

Finally a modicum of sence but then you spoil it

Since the left shoulder moving upwards does this mean the whole primary lever assembly is also moving upwards? - Yes- this is a fact. NO- I don't see it that way- see my understanding above. But if we keep discussing this I should be able to understand your point or you mine.

Oh come on....

If I climbed the empire state building holding a golf club in my left hand, the left shoulder will have moved upwards as does the entire primary lever assembly.

Perhaps your Mr. Stretch ....

Since the whole primary lever assembly moves upwards and the clubhead is a part of the primary lever assembly - does this move the clubhead upwards too? - Yes this is a fact. NO- Again I don't see that but hopefully with my answers here - we can get to "common ground".

Okay....

So you must think is it possible to be holding the club in your left hand and the clubhead to be on pluto and the left shoulder here on earth ?

There is no common ground. Your arguements are ludicrious and deserve to be mocked....

Since the left shoulder is continually moving upwards mean that this effect is only going to make the clubhead orbit have its lowest point prior to the point it passes the left shoulder when viewed directly from the front - Yes , Yes, YES.... NO- That's why I thought the "7" example was a good one to show my perspective. Also, If you are saying that when the left shoulder moves upward that the clubhead moves upward- then I'd say that with that logic - then the clubhead would need to start moving upward when it was halfway down - on the downswing.

The clubhead goes upwards when the effect of the left shoulder going upwards outweighs the effect of the clubhead going downwards in relation to its own orbit which brings the low point backwards slightly from 'opposite the left shoulder'.

Obviously you don't grasp obvious things...

Your crazy counterarguement doesn't have any logic and is just a disingenious strawman.

Matthew,
See my comments above. Let me know what you think.

And why is it that no one thinks I'm funny? Gotcha- Cause I'm not! Well that's not going to stop me from harassing UPP and Bucket!!

I do hope your being comedic with this post...

[Mike O]

[quote=Mike O;50453][quote=Mathew;50443]
Since the left shoulder moving upwards does this mean the whole primary lever assembly is also moving upwards? - Yes- this is a fact. NO- I don't see it that way- see my understanding above. But if we keep discussing this I should be able to understand your point or you mine.
QUOTE]

Matthew,
My main intent for having our continuing discussions like these is to learn. That usually works in two different ways 1) Since your view point is on the surface different than mine (you think if the left shoulder moves up in relation to the ground - then every portion of the primary lever system moves up in relation to the ground- where I don't)- In my mind I believe that I might be missing something and that you may have some information that would allow me to learn something or take a look at something in a new perspective- so I continue conversing to get to the bottom of the differnce in understanding. 2) During the process of proving one's point or analyzing it and trying to better communicate it- one learns things which allow one to understand the subject matter better and communicate it better.

My intent at the end of the day isn't to "win" an argument- that's secondary to learning. Since I'm probably "good" up through algebra in mathematics- and I would imagine that you might have higher mathmatical skills- I really believe that you might have ideas and concepts that I could learn from - if I didn't have that thought I wouldn't be continuing the conversation. That said - just realize that I'm not "blind" nor unmoveable- so I continue the conversation believing that we can make some head way. I don't see the conversation as some might- "Hey, you guys are just discussing some minor issue bla bla - not that important etc. - let it go" - because as I said above- the thing I like about these conversations is that you do learn- and that's really my only goal and I've already done that- but I'll post that another time later in the thread when I might not be so concerned about creating more confusion.

The first two paragraphs here - are just to clarify the context of my posts- since they represent "my mental approach"- if for any reason you think they are completely or somewhat inaccurate- then no problem but let's not debate that- because then it just becomes he said she said- So with that - let's get back to more and more specifics and see if we can get somewhere - where at least we understand where the other person is coming from and/or adjusting our viewpoints.

See the quote in this post above- with your original question/answer and my reply:
Then you replied to my answer on that quote:

Oh come on....

If I climbed the empire state building holding a golf club in my left hand, the left shoulder will have moved upwards as does the entire primary lever assembly.

Perhaps your Mr. Stretch ....

Let me continue to stay on the topic we are on and show you - in what way I agree with you - and - in what way I don't- hopefully it will get us somewhere. Likewise - As I try to do with any of my statements in response to your posts- it might help if you explain in what way you agree with the statements in my posts and in what way you don't agree with the statements- and why.

Hopefully the below will clarify the quote at the top and your response bolded in the middle of this post.
A) If you are in a stationary position- say at impact fix- and you just raise your shoulder- I agree that the whole primary lever assembly is going to raise up.
B) If you are in a rotating system- like the golf swing- then at anytime the left shoulder is rotating up- in relation to the ground- that does not mean that the "entire" primary lever system- i.e. every point along it - is going to be moving up in relation to the ground. The Primary lever system is the entire lead arm and the entire clubshaft and clubhead. As you can see in any swing sequence and as I mentioned in my previous post- the left shoulder is moving up in relation to the ground- when the hands are say hip high on the downswing. So while the left shoulder is moving up- parts of the lever assembly are still moving down.
C) So in the rotating system where you have two "levers" - the shoulder line and the primary lever assembly line - like the "7". Then during the downswing- you have a situation where the corner of the "7" i.e. the left shoulder is at some point (say when hands get hip high on the downswing) are going to be moving up in relation to the ground WHILE the bottom of the "7" i.e. the clubhead is still going to be moving down in relation to the ground.

That specific issue has been my whole point all along- that just because the left shoulder is moving up in relation to the ground "at any point in the swing" doesn't necessarily mean that the clubhead is moving up in relation to the ground.

Matthew- also realize the limitations to my "whole point" - I'm not saying that you might be correct or might be wrong in regards to the location of lowpoint slightly back of the left shoulder etc. Of course, I'd need it defined and explained so I could understand why (I know you said you might do some graphics or something and sometime down the road would be great- not pushing you on that). What I have been disagreeing with is the concept as you presented it - that since the left shoulder is rising up in relation to the ground that therefore the clubhead would be rising up in relation to the ground. My point is that is not necessarily so- as I hope my example points out.

Now, that you and I have practically evacuated the forum with this thread - It's nice to know we have that kind of power Matthew! I'm hoping for two things-
1) you can clearly address my statements above and show where you agree and where you don't and why.
2) That someone else might chime in and either say "Hey, Mike I don't understand your explanation either in regards to this particular issue" or "Hey, Mike I understand what you are saying and clearly see your point". At least a comment from one or two "outside" parties might help you or me- start to better explain or understand our issues.

Thanks Matthew!

[Mike O]

Since the left shoulder moving upwards does this mean the whole primary lever assembly is also moving upwards? - Yes- this is a fact. NO- I don't see it that way- see my understanding above. But if we keep discussing this I should be able to understand your point or you mine.

I do not think so either. The primary lever assembly is staying level. The left shoulder rises but the right shoulder is going downplane. Then as the swing gets to both arms straight, that approximates low point assuming minimal throwaway....

How is that? Too simplistic?

UPP in snowy but warming Ohio

UPP-Here is where I think you missed it and where you got it.
A) You got it - in the regard that you are visualizing the center of the shoulders i.e. the neck/head staying level.
B) Where you missed it- is that the primary lever assembly- is not the entire power package and it is not the center of the shoulders i.e. neck/head- but it is the left arm/shoulder and golf club.
See if that helps - or see if you and I need to have an on-going simultaneous thread - like the one that I'm having with Matthew.

By the way- you are a positive thinker- I like that! OR did they give you back your job on the Ohio Tourism board? "Snowy but warming up" come on Bob! What did it go from -10F to -5 F? That's pathetic!

[Uppndownn]

Alrighty then.
If the primary lever assembly is left arm and clubshaft, assuming minimal throwaway, the lever is getting considerably longer as it approaches impact as the left wrist uncocks. The distance that the lever is lengthening is larger than the distance the left shoulder is moving upward. Does that sum up your view, Mike?

While Matthew must be saying the left shoulder is moving up more than the primary lever assembly is lengthening prior to and through impact? If that is so, would it not be hard to take divots?

It was sunny here and a lot of snow melted today.....temps in the 40° range forecasted tomorrow! We'll be teeing it up here in no time!

UPP in snowy Ohio

[12 piece bucket]

Mikey,
You see that ballgame today! Man! Kobe was incredible- Holla Back!

[Mike O]

Alrighty then.
If the primary lever assembly is left arm and clubshaft, assuming minimal throwaway, the lever is getting considerably longer as it approaches impact as the left wrist uncocks. The distance that the lever is lengthening is larger than the distance the left shoulder is moving upward. Does that sum up your view, Mike?

While Matthew must be saying the left shoulder is moving up more than the primary lever assembly is lengthening prior to and through impact? If that is so, would it not be hard to take divots?

It was sunny here and a lot of snow melted today.....temps in the 40° range forecasted tomorrow! We'll be teeing it up here in no time!

UPP in snowy Ohio

UPP,
I'm glad you posted that. No, I'm not including the left wrist at all in the equation at this point- just to keep things simple. Does it have some affect- sure but let's agree that as Matthew says it's minimal- in fact- don't even include it in the equation.

I'm saying that the number 7 is the representation of the shoulder line - and the primary lever /, looking face on to a player- say at impact fix. So, we are looking at the primary lever as if it was one single piece - one 2x4.

Now, per one of my previous posts- you took the pencil lead and put it between the "shoulders" i.e. in the middle of the top line of the 7 and then rotated it- the corner of the 7 where they both meet represents the golfer's lead shoulder at address- from the face on view. The slanting leg of the 7 represents the primary lever - from the face on view. Now, like the golfer swinging - the left shoulder of the 7 moves up but the end of the primary lever system i.e. clubhead does not begin to move up until it passes where- ever the shoulder is.

In fact if you have that pencil lead in the middle of the top line and you rotate the 7 clockwise- like the backswing in a golf swing, you can see that the shoulder goes down- while the clubhead goes up. That's the same thing that I am saying is happening on the downswing- at some point halfway down- the shoulder begins to move up in relation to the ground- as it orbits around it's own circle while the clubhead is still moving down.

Here is what started this whole thing- Matthew posted the following:
Actually, no it doesn't. This would be true if the left shoulder was stationary, however in the golf stroke the left shoulder is moving in its own little orbit that contains an upwards direction and this brings the low point backwards somewhat.

I read that as if Matthew is saying that since the left shoulder is going up that the clubhead must be going up. Maybe I read that wrong and he'll correct me but since I read it that way- I disagreed for obvious reasons stated here and my previous posts. I see the left shoulder starting to move up - when you're hands are say half way down on the down swing. Just so I can hone in on what he is saying I guess I should ask Matthew when does he see the left shoulder moving up? Matthew- where are you? Holla Back!

[12 piece bucket]

UPP,
I'm glad you posted that. No, I'm not including the left wrist at all in the equation at this point- just to keep things simple. Does it have some affect- sure but let's agree that as Matthew says it's minimal- in fact- don't even include it in the equation.

I'm saying that the number 7 is the representation of the shoulder line - and the primary lever /. So, we are looking at the primary lever as if it was one single piece - one 2x4.

Now, per one of my previous posts- you took the pencil lead and put it between the "shoulders" i.e. in the middle of the top line of the 7 and then rotated it- the corner of the 7 where they both meet represents the golfer's lead shoulder at address- from the face on view. The slanting leg of the 7 represents the primary lever - from the face on view. Now, like the golfer swinging - the left shoulder of the 7 moves up but the end of the primary lever system i.e. clubhead does not begin to move up until it passes where- ever the shoulder is. In fact if you have that pencil lead in the middle of the top line and you rotate the 7 clockwise- you can see that the shoulder goes down- while the clubhead goes up. That's the same thing that I am saying is happening on the downswing- at some point halfway down- the shoulder begins to move up in relation to the ground- as it orbits around it's own circle while the clubhead is still moving down.

Here is what started this whole thing- Matthew posted the following:
Actually, no it doesn't. This would be true if the left shoulder was stationary, however in the golf stroke the left shoulder is moving in its own little orbit that contains an upwards direction and this brings the low point backwards somewhat.

I see the left shoulder starting to move up - when you're hands are say half way down on the down swing. I guess I should ask Matthew when do you see the left shoulder moving up? I get the feeling from his quote and posts that maybe he sees it just moving up slightly before where low point would be for a stationary shoulder.

Doesn't the angle in your 7 example change? The accumulator angle seeks it's inline condition right?