Yoda - you wrote-: "We encourage debate on the fine points, Jeff, and we welcome your contributions. We also can handle being patronized (as long as we feel we are being educated). But, don't continue to insult us with obvious contradicitons.
That tactic does nothing to further the objectives of this fraternity and destroys your own credibility within it."
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You seem to be implying that I am acting in "bad faith" by tactically trying to get away with some obvious contradiction. That's terribly unfair! I may be arrogant and stupid and uninformed and totally wrong, but I am not trying to intentionally mislead anybody.
Brian was concerned that golfers tended to reverse pivot if they rigidly kept their heads too still. He suggested that a golfer should learn to pivot the pelvis correctly by having a free rotation of the pelvis that would allow the spine to acquire a rightwards spinal tilt. Brain was not concerned if the head moves slightly to the right. He wasn't promoting a deliberate movement of the head. He was simply stating that it is more important to keep the base of the neck still.
His exaggerated drill may produce an excessive upper torso tilt to the right and excessive head shift to the right, but he was not encouraging upper torso swaying (which is a lateral torso movement without a major rotary component). In fact, I think that he was essentially dealing with the same problem-issue that Brady Riggs was talking about - a reverse pivot due to swaying the pelvis right-laterally instead of rotating the pelvis. Both instructors were encouraging a movement of the right femoral head left-backwards, thereby inducing a pelvic rotation, and that pelvic rotational movement would naturally cause the spine to become more oriented towards the right (as I previously described).
I think that both golf instructors are encouraging the correct method of rotating the pelvis in the backswing, which inevitably causes the spine and upper torso to acquire a rightwards-tilt. However, my personal belief is that this reverse-K postural movement should not be exaggerated to such a degree that the head moves more than 1-3" right off its central position. My personal bias is that a small amount of rightwards head movement is acceptable during the backswing, but that it is very unacceptable to allow the left side of the head/face to move closer to the target at any time point during the backswing or downswing (compared to its address position).
I may be wrong in my opinions, but I am definitely not trying to mislead anyone or reconcile obvious contradictions.
Jeff.
Not sure how that drill encourages the base of the neck to be still but whatever . . . .
So now that we know your theory on proper backstroke pivoting . . . . What should the head do on the way through the stroke? Move forward the amount it moved back or move forward that much more or just stay back there?
That article doesn't mention anything on the spine's ability to side bend or extend in either direction . . . . If you don't extend your spine on the backstroke you'll end up looking like the drill does.
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Aloha Mr. Hand
Behold my hands; reach hither thy hand
Last edited by 12 piece bucket : 12-11-2008 at 09:56 AM.
Hang in there, Kevin. You're on the right track. Study 1-L #1 and #2. Be extremely skeptical of novel ideas -- from whatever pulpit preached -- that don't square with these axioms.
1-L #1 and #2 WOW, talk about back to square one. The BM drill is about as far away from that tenant as you can get!
I'm here to learn some TGM structure. Thanks Yoda for keeping us on the proper path!
Kevin
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I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
You wrote-: "Not sure how that drill encourages the base of the neck to be still but whatever . . . ."
I don't think that you understand why he proposes that drill.
I think that many beginner golfers tend to reverse pivot. One cause is a tendency to "fixedly" keep the head still while swaying the pelvis right-laterally (as demonstrated by Brady Riggs). That causes the upper torso to sway to the left in order to keep in balance. All these lower and upper torso motions are lateral swaying motions without any rotary component.
What both BM and BR are saying is that one needs to rotate the pelvis during the backswing. I believe that the natural result will be the production of a reverse K position - as previously described. Therefore, a golfer must have the distinct feeling that his upper torso is slanted to the right. BM was presumably promoting that exaggerated drill so that a beginner golfer would get the "feel" of how the upper torso slant-rotates to the right when the pelvis rotates 45 degrees back. That doesn't mean that a golfer should have that amount of right slant-rotation of the upper torso in his "real swing". I think that it is better to minimise the slant-rotation of the upper torso so that it doesn't move the head back more than 1-3". I believe that any unnecessary movement of the head or upper swing center is a disadvantage because it means that the golfer has to move back again in the downswing.
It is possible to keep the head back and not move it forward to where it was at address and still hit the ball well. Tiger Woods does that - see next image.
Note that his head moved down-and-back in the downswing. I think that it doesn't affect his swing because his upper swing center (blue dot) remains in the "correct" position.
I am not at all promoting any unnecessary movement of the head. My favorite swings are of golfers who keep their head stationary despite acquiring a reverse-K position at the end of the backswing.
The first video shows that he gets a lot of rightwards slant-rotation of his upper torso by the end of the backswing. Also, one can learn a lot about spine movements by watching that second view. Note how his mid-upper thoracic spine gets torqued by his large shoulder turn and how its verticalizes his mid-upper thoracic spine, and therefore allows him to keep his head stationary. That is optimum from my perspective. He doesn't allow his head to move as far rightwards as BM.
My theory is that BM gets his head too far to the right during the mid-backswing because he starts off with his head too far over to the right at address. I suspect that he keeps his pelvis central and then tilts his upper spine to the right at address. That moves his head to the right of center of his stance. Then, when he rotates his pelvis in the mid-backswing, his head moves further rightwards.
I think that he would be better off if he followed Yoda's advice for getting rightwards spinal tilt at address - keep the head centralised between the feet and then shift the pelvis sightly to the left.
You wrote-: "Not sure how that drill encourages the base of the neck to be still but whatever . . . ."
I don't think that you understand why he proposes that drill.
I think that many beginner golfers tend to reverse pivot. One cause is a tendency to "fixedly" keep the head still while swaying the pelvis right-laterally (as demonstrated by Brady Riggs). That causes the upper torso to sway to the left in order to keep in balance. All these lower and upper torso motions are lateral swaying motions without any rotary component.
What both BM and BR are saying is that one needs to rotate the pelvis during the backswing. I believe that the natural result will be the production of a reverse K position - as previously described. Therefore, a golfer must have the distinct feeling that his upper torso is slanted to the right. BM was presumably promoting that exaggerated drill so that a beginner golfer would get the "feel" of how the upper torso slant-rotates to the right when the pelvis rotates 45 degrees back. That doesn't mean that a golfer should have that amount of right slant-rotation of the upper torso in his "real swing". I think that it is better to minimise the slant-rotation of the upper torso so that it doesn't move the head back more than 1-3". I believe that any unnecessary movement of the head or upper swing center is a disadvantage because it means that the golfer has to move back again in the downswing.
It is possible to keep the head back and not move it forward to where it was at address and still hit the ball well. Tiger Woods does that - see next image.
Note that his head moved down-and-back in the downswing. I think that it doesn't affect his swing because his upper swing center (blue dot) remains in the "correct" position.
I am not at all promoting any unnecessary movement of the head. My favorite swings are of golfers who keep their head stationary despite acquiring a reverse-K position at the end of the backswing.
The first video shows that he gets a lot of rightwards slant-rotation of his upper torso by the end of the backswing. Also, one can learn a lot about spine movements by watching that second view. Note how his mid-upper thoracic spine gets torqued by his large shoulder turn and how its verticalizes his mid-upper thoracic spine, and therefore allows him to keep his head stationary. That is optimum from my perspective. He doesn't allow his head to move as far rightwards as BM.
Jeff.
What is a "reverse pivot"? I'd like to define terms please . . .
How would you teach those reverse pivoting beginners to hit a draw?
[Hogan's] head is behind the center of his stance at address. He also moves his head ahead of that center line during the downswing.
Now this in post #69:
Originally Posted by Jeff
. . . it is very unacceptable to allow the left side of the head/face to move closer to the target at any time point during the backswing or downswing (compared to its address position).
I may be wrong in my opinions, but I am definitely not trying to mislead anyone or reconcile obvious contradictions.
Based on your analysis of Ben Hogan's swing and its conflict with your statement, you presumably find Hogan's move "unacceptabe". I suggest that puts you in a minority.
Yoda - very good point about Hogan. That demonstrates my foolishness and yet again demonstrates to me that I should never make strict rules that are not 100% biomechanically solid. Hogan slides his pelvis quite a lot left-laterally in my photo series and that moves his torso/head slightly leftwards. That's obviously not a problem for the golfer who is without doubt one of the greatest ball strikers in the history of golf.
It is interesting that VJ Trolio shows in his book that Hogan didn't have that much slide later in his career. In fact, he states that Hogan didn't have any slide during the downswing because he moved his pelvis left-laterally in the backswing. I am still conflicted by this issue and I wonder if there was a major change in his pelvic movements later in his life, or whether we are having a problem with camera angle distortion issues.
That demonstrates my foolishness and yet again demonstrates to me that I should never make strict rules that are not 100% biomechanically solid.
Jeff.
I still don't get all this . . . I got no beef with biomechanics . . . but to what end? Are we trying to hit it the farthest? Are we trying to hit it far and straight blending the two?
How much distance are we to believe Tiger is gaining by moving his head back and bobbing? Or is that an accuracy deal?
I am a student of golf biomechanics because I think that a golfer is likely to swing better if he moves in a biomechanically natural manner. That's why I constantly study the swings of good players to try and identify biomechanically sound golf movement practices that are consistent with sound TGM mechanical principles. HK did wonderful work on the mechanics/physics/geometry of the golf swing, but he didn't have much to say about how the body must move biomechanically to achieve desirable TGM practices.
I suspect that Tiger Woods' head falls back-and-down because he develops so much secondary axis tilt in his driver swing. He has far less secondary axis tilt in his mid/short iron swings.
I simply define a reverse pivot as a backswing action where the spine tilts left towards the target, so that the golfer is leaning over to the left at the end of the backswing. I think that a severe reverse pivoting golfer cannot hit a draw because he is forced to throw his club OTT to get his hands down to the ball. There is no space below the right shoulder as occurs when a golfer has the standard pivot-driven swing which allows one to establish a reverse-K look at the end-backswing position.
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