thoughts....decided on a pattern

[whip]

OMG, who's teaching you this stuff? Ask him to call me.

However, you are looking in the right place..



In the first sentence, HK say's "none will be an actual “Roll” of the Hands". He means: No-Flash-the-Hands, No-Spinning.

In the Second sentence, HK say's "true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignments by Accumulator #3". He means that the Hands will Roll as a Result of the #3 Accumulator Traveling around the "Pulley".

Also:

1. Anytime you have two sticks Angled together "|_", you have "Hook Face". A Hockey stick has Hook Face, a Baseball Bat does not. A Golf Club has Hook Face and it's easily "Manipulated".
   
2. Hinge Action starts at the "Pulley", not the Impact Interval. The geometry-Alignments of the Power Package for Hinging need to be accommodated before the Hands reach the Pulley.

I'm sorry I cannot bite, Hinge action IS exclusively during the impact interval, although it helps to see the differences of the hinges by executing them through a larger range of motion and I understand that you always prepare to do something prior to doing it wether you know it or not. true hinge action is only during the fractions of seconds that the ball is on the club face. The geometry needs to be accommodated for during the address routine In deciding what hinge, curve, direction you are going to use and apply it accordingly to the impact fix alignments. The term hook face is not referring to the L shape of a hockey stick vs. The straight bat, it is referring to the hook face built into the club again it Cannot be adjusted, opening or closing the face is NOT adding or reducing "hook face" perhaps Lynn can explain the hook face further. He says none will be an actual roll of the hands, correct the key here is that the orbiting arms and pivot create the hinge motion the true rotation comes before and after the flat vertical left wrist executes it's intended hinge action.

If you roll the left hand flat you are still maintaining the Rpms at the same rate, how would they not be? Hinging is def something I will be working on and will be trying to avoiding any spinning or erratic use of the hands for sure zones 2 and 3 need more attention for sure

[O.B.Left]

I just want you to know that some day, when I'm famous for my "Homer Kelley Concepts Video's", that your name is mentioned in the Credits. "Mike O" is not.

Thank you Daryl. Mike O. is already credited for his contribution to the Gummer book so .......he's not without such honours. He'll be ok with this Im sure. Given some time.

Uh can I review what Im being credited for before you go to print?

[O.B.Left]

Guys the geometry you are discussing warrants a new thread. A thread Ive been waiting for a long time. Hook face, low point vs straight away point, true swinging vs manipulated hands, plane rotation vs grip rotation etc etc its all in the geometry of the circle and can be drawn with pencil and paper.

It could be a little contentious given the similar studies popular today. Launch monitor , trackman, d plane etc. I think there's probably some points of departure , not sure where but Im sure there is. Homer came at it from a geometry perspective, geometry of the circle. Paper and pencil and deduction. Its not the only way today but it was in his time.

Is the circle irrelevant because the clubhead path is really elliptical? No. Its a model that is relevant and further more the point of impact is also a point along the ellipse's circumference where the radius, the left arm and the club (the primary lever) is nearing full extension , making it very circular in form. Fixed center , fixed length of radius giving you a circle. The relevancy of the circle assumption increases as impact nears. You could refine the geometry to show the ellipse and plane shifts unique to each golfer but you dont need to do this to convey a basic understanding of the geometry at hand. The basic understanding necessary to influence a golfer's Intentions. The antithesis of Homers Steering. Namely , the geometry of a Hinge Action of an Angular Motion on an Inclined Plane. Golfs geometry ......hockeys too, field hockey... etc. The instrument employed dictating the geometry. Sam Snead's old croquet putter would imply a change of geometry to non inclined plane.

Start a new thread.

By the way I agree that the amount of hook face is determined by the manufacturer unless you have bent more hook face in or out yourself. You can of course add further grip rotation and effect more of a hooked face and deloft the club........ We need to stick to definitions to discuss this one, I suspect you're both saying the same thing in different ways. The hockey stick thing alone doesnt mandate a hooked face, my driver has a slice face for instance as its designed to sit square fore of low point.

A discussion on Hook face by itself , let alone the entire Geometry would take a few pages. This will be big , but its time has come. Wonder if Yoda will jump in?

[Daryl]

Guys the geometry you are discussing warrants a new thread. A thread Ive been waiting for a long time. Hook face, low point vs straight away point, true swinging vs manipulated hands, plane rotation vs grip rotation etc etc its all in the geometry of the circle and can be drawn with pencil and paper.

It could be a little contentious given the similar studies popular today. Launch monitor , trackman, d plane etc. I think there's probably some points of departure , not sure where but Im sure there is. Homer came at it from a geometry perspective, geometry of the circle. Paper and pencil and deduction. Its not the only way today but it was in his time.

Is the circle irrelevant because the clubhead path is really elliptical? No. Its a model that is relevant and further more the point of impact is also a point along the ellipse's circumference where the radius, the left arm and the club (the primary lever) is nearing full extension , making it very circular in form. Fixed center , fixed length of radius giving you a circle. The relevancy of the circle assumption increases as impact nears. You could refine the geometry to show the ellipse and plane shifts unique to each golfer but you dont need to do this to convey a basic understanding of the geometry at hand. The basic understanding necessary to influence a golfer's Intentions. The antithesis of Homers Steering. Namely , the geometry of a Hinge Action of an Angular Motion on an Inclined Plane. Golfs geometry ......hockeys too, field hockey... etc. The instrument employed dictating the geometry. Sam Snead's old croquet putter would imply a change of geometry to non inclined plane.

Start a new thread.

By the way I agree that the amount of hook face is determined by the manufacturer unless you have bent more hook face in or out yourself. You can of course add further grip rotation and effect more of a hooked face and deloft the club........ We need to stick to definitions to discuss this one, I suspect you're both saying the same thing in different ways. The hockey stick thing alone doesnt mandate a hooked face, my driver has a slice face for instance as its designed to sit square fore of low point.

A discussion on Hook face by itself , let alone the entire Geometry would take a few pages. This will be big , but its time has come. Wonder if Yoda will jump in?

Nah. He can follow his own path like so many others. It'll be a longer journey than necessary. Been there.....done that.

[whip]

Homer wrote the book, the end. No need for another thread, hook face is determined by weight distribution and club shaft attachment angle, every club in the bag has varying amounts of hook face to give it the proper relation to the plane line, this is vaguely discussed in the book and could warrant further explanation. The only other thread on hook face did not produce any accurate explanations, this stuff is very important in having a chance to hit the ball straight.

Just to clarify the true swingers intent....

Print this out and turn upside down for Players View. Average Club: Impact 4" behind Low Point.

The hinge action is only during the time that the ball is deforming and reforming on the club face until separation. The fact that In this picture the club face closed only during the impact interval represents a horizontal hinge action, either by manual manipulation or the natural result of centrifugal force striving to achieve the clubs in line condition

[Mike O]

Thank you Daryl. Mike O. is already credited for his contribution to the Gummer book so .......he's not without such honours. He'll be ok with this Im sure. Given some time.

Uh can I review what Im being credited for before you go to print?

Well said OB.
Two points of background clarification.
I told Mr. Gummer verbally that I didn't have an interest in having my name mentioned in his book even though I would help provide some background information/material for his project. Yet, he put me in anyway. Secondly, based on my experience with Mr. Gummer he has character flaws in regards to his integrity that would not warrant any future personal or business association with him - for me.

On a lighter note - Daryl's just upset that I didn't buy him dessert after dinner. Not to mention that anything he would produce is entirely his and as he mentioned earlier - I had no input for him on any Golfing Machine ideas or interpretations.

Meanwhile OB I see you've skipped over my "psychological issues" post - I'll just add "repression" to the list of your "issues"!

Finally, who is this "Whip" cat? Dig up some dirt would you, i'd hate to have to communicate with that tird brain Bucket.

[O.B.Left]

Hah! I still get a laugh outa that one, I dont care what D says.

Mike Id like to suggest that it is you that is repressed. I answered the psychological thing in kind, as per the above.

You accusing me of repression can only mean that you Sir are subject to projection (and repression).

Or maybe you just missed it. Or maybe we both are suffering from both?

[O.B.Left]

Whip you got skills and you are actually studying the book. Glad to have you around.

We can talk about this stuff here if you want to , its your thread I suppose.

Homer talked at length about Hooked face in his GSEM classes. Agreed whats written in the book needs to be expanded upon and it is central to his impact geometry theories. So is hand manipulation vs true swinging, grip rotation vs plane line rotation, horizontal vs vertical vs angled. Its a big topic that requires diagrams.

Re Hinge Action: The hinge actions effect on the ball is limited to the impact interval yes, but the left hands relationship to the associated basic plane extends beyond impact in both directions. You dont swivel right up to the moment of contact although it can feel like that.

Imagine the swivel this way: In the Downswing your left hand lies flat to the plane , during hinge action your left hand maintains a perpendicular relationship to one of the three associated basic planes. Between these two precision alignments of the left hand (club face) is the action of the swivel. It swivels the left hand off the inclined plane to its prescribed alignment vis a vis the chosen associated basic plane. Its a bridge if you will , between alignments , between the left wrists lying flat to plane and whatever hinge action is desired. Both fore and aft of impact, in Release Swivel and Finish Swivel. The Swivels length is dependent upon Release Point and Hinge Action...... it can be early and long or late and fast etc etc. It feels like a Roll and it is a Roll but to vArying degrees.

[whip]

I still am not 100 percent clear on hook face but I do know it is an unalterable result of the clubshaft attachment angle and the club heads weight distribution based on the geometry of the club face and loft and each club has it's own degree of hook face throughout except maybe the putter in order to give the club it's proper relation to the plane line referring to the down and out impact. It seems the 4th edition mentions the bit about attachment angle and weight distribution but not the 5th or 6th. Also The clubs "squared awaay" position is not always an indicator of it's actual position. The clubs leading edge may be square (perpendicular) to the target but when you put a pointer on the face, it may point slightly to the left showing it's true position, most wedges will show this easily although the Dave pelz wedges seem to point straight according with their leading edge. This is the minutia involved and required for ultra precision which is not always feasible or required to play great golf.

I have worked very hard on getting balanced making a proper pivot as homer tells us zone 1 is so important for good golf. This year I'm gonna continue to perfect the pivot and start getting more detailed in zones 2 and 3. Although I have a ton to work on upon re-viewing the hybrid swing FO I would argue that I'm executing a dual horizontal hinge cleanly.

[12 piece bucket]

I still am not 100 percent clear on hook face but I do know it is an unalterable result of the clubshaft attachment angle and the club heads weight distribution based on the geometry of the club face and loft and each club has it's own degree of hook face throughout except maybe the putter in order to give the club it's proper relation to the plane line referring to the down and out impact. It seems the 4th edition mentions the bit about attachment angle and weight distribution but not the 5th or 6th. Also The clubs "squared awaay" position is not always an indicator of it's actual position. The clubs leading edge may be square (perpendicular) to the target but when you put a pointer on the face, it may point slightly to the left showing it's true position, most wedges will show this easily although the Dave pelz wedges seem to point straight according with their leading edge. This is the minutia involved and required for ultra precision which is not always feasible or required to play great golf.

I have worked very hard on getting balanced making a proper pivot as homer tells us zone 1 is so important for good golf. This year I'm gonna continue to perfect the pivot and start getting more detailed in zones 2 and 3. Although I have a ton to work on upon re-viewing the hybrid swing FO I would argue that I'm executing a dual horizontal hinge cleanly.

Looked at the iron swing you put up on the grass....I thought the face motion looked GREAT....you have a beautiful motion...the only thing I'd consider is more hip turn on the backswing.....you have a swing to covet...nice work!