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Quote:

Originally Posted by Weetbix (Post 66759)

If you are talking about the unconscious mind I think you may be right. And what Biomechanic teaches is exercises that train your unconscious movement patterns to become more efficient. The only other way I have heard to train these is through consciously repeating a mechanical action to create "muscle memory". This is a slow process requiring repetition after repetition.

I have no idea why the training works. I have done very little training yet it has had an almost instant and noticable impact, both to my swing and my results. Biomechanic trains the causes that lead to clubhead lag, that lead to a flat left wrist and that lead to an on plane swing. I haven't worked on any of these effects. Not one. Instead I am being trained in what causes them.

To apply your analogy a good race driver does not think about the pedals, the wheel, or the brake. A good driver sees the line they want to drive on and their body responds with the right mechanical activities to put the car on that line at the highest possible speed. It is learner drivers who have to think about gears, pedals and wheels - and they don't drive very well.

You cannot find out what happens in a top level golfers mind, except that they will tell you "very little". I remember an article where they measured Greg Norman's pre shot routine. They found that his bad shots almost always has a pre shot routine that is slightly longer than normal. His best shots come when he goes into autopilot. And you cannot be taught autopilot from another person.

Biomechanic doesn't try and measure what happens in other people's heads. What he does measure is what happens with their bodies in incredible detail. He assessesd what happens and can say what is good and what is harmful. And he has exercises that he can use to improve the good and remove what is harmful. And this is what is key to what he has to offer. He has exercises that train your body to have more efficient and effective movement patterns, which have been proven to work through lots and lots of testing. TGM has all this information on what your swing should do. Biomechanic has information on how you can do it, and exercises to teach you to do it.

It's not that this is the only way to play better golf. As Daryl has pointed out he is an example of someone who plays very good golf and has never had this training. But this is such an efficient way to improve. I mean, how much improvement would you expect from 12 hours of exercises performed over 10 weeks? Particularly if your swing completely changed from a long, upright, handsy action to a flat, short action. And all this with no instruction on setup, on grip, on plane, on backswing, on footwork, on hinge actions, on the right arm, on flat left wrist, on bent right wrist, on driving the shoulder, on weight shift, on power packages, on anything that looked like golf mechanics.

And you know what? I am sure I am learning many of these things. I am getting compression that I didn't even know existed. I must have a FLW or I wouldn't get that. I must have lag or I wouldn't get that.

Sounds good . . . do you have any before and after video? I'd be interested to see if you motion changed? Or if you were just generating more speed with the same motion?

You said . .

He has exercises that train your body to have more efficient and effective movement patterns, which have been proven to work through lots and lots of testing

I'm still a bit confused on what you measure and from what starting point? Efficient and effective movement patterns in relation to what? Effective as to what end?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mb6606 (Post 66792)

JS has a terrific pivot but I see a tremendous amount of hand speed and a phenomenal #2 accumulator.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMo6a...eature=related

What do these pivots have in common? If anything . . . if there is something in common . . . why is it common?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryl (Post 66805)

Does everyone notice by watching the slo-mo's, that none of these guys use a right arm throw or hand throw. None of them unbend the right elbow during the downswing until release (Stable power package). Do you also notice that none of them swing like Hogan with the Upper arms tight to the body.

Yep . . . and many times they can't hit it in a fairway 100 yards wide . . . if you want to hit the ball 400 yards and don't give a ratzazz where it ends up . . . swing like that . . . if you want to hit it far . . . and straight . . . better check out what Mr. Hogan is doing . . . . there are some similarities in the pivot . . . some in the arms . . . . plane angle and shifts are way different . . . as you observe . . . arms in relation to the body are light years different . . . question is why? Is there a reason for it? . . . . that is why I keep asking . . . . biomechanically efficient to WHAT END???

No one here said JS is Biomechanically efficient? Don't know where you got that from? I would, as Bio recommends, go for the actions of Hogan any day of the week, I want to hit fairways and greens, not the end of a footy pitch.
To what end you ask? Less injury risk. More efficiency, not just power. Some seem to think Biomechanics is about just hitting harder, this is not so. It is about efficient use of body movement, this may well result in more power. It's about creating a repeatable swing that compresses the ball so that distance control is better, not just distance. Accuracy improves as the regularity of the swing improves. Consistency is built through this training and that leads to better accuracy.
It seems there is much being read into this that has not been stated, this is not about the LD guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by no_mind_golfer (Post 66781)

Again Conservation of Momentum does not apply... Data shows a golfer's muscles are active through out the swing. Nothing is being conserved. No chains are snapping. Momentum is not being transfered from one body segment to another (IF SO PROVE IT.. this I want to see)

I know that the scientific disipline is called Kinesiology not "human motion physics". Although I have studied anatomy, physiology and human factors as it pertains to engineering I know that I am not passing myself off as a kinesiology expert attempting to sell videos and diagnostic lessons. You on the other hand are. What exactly are your qualifications bioengine?

Yes we know you once golfed well and but that hardly qualifies you as an expert on the subject matter does it? Such rationalization would suggest Tiger Woods is the best kinesiologist in the world..... I think not. I suspect everyone on this forum is as qualified to discuss these matters. My gripe is with the constant misuse of the vocabulary and the selling of snake oil though I admit even placebos can be effective... for a time.

COAM... COM ... neither apply.

No Mind,
How about opening up you mind for a minute. At present you have a closed mind. Your going off your own belief system.

Your sadly mistaken if you think I'm here to sell videos etc.
You are way off the mark there.

Problem in golf is no likes sharing their information. I have admiration for Yoda cause he's only to happy to share his knowledge with everyone.
I'm in the same boat I want to share my knowledge with people for the better of the game. Not sell video's your sadly mistaken.

hmm energy can't be stored interesting, can you please enlighten everyone about eccentric-cocentric (Stretch-Shorten Cycle) works please.
I believe that with in this cycle they say elastic energy is stored. Quite interesting.

Can you enlighten us on the first law of thermodynamics
U=Eh+Em+Ep,s
U= work ,
Eh = change in heat or thermal energy,
Em = Change in chemical energy
Es,p = Change in elastic energy

Your saying the muscles are always active, hmm interesting. Aren't also muscles accelerating an decelerating as well.

Can explain this phoenomena for us.
Angular momentum is conserved in a system where there is no net external torque, and its conservation helps explain many diverse phenomena. For example, the increase in rotational speed of a spinning figure skater as the skater's arms are contracted is a consequence of conservation of angular momentum.

Angular momentum applies in golf, actually in tennis, throwing and a ton of other sports, research was conduct by kinesiology and have written tons on research conducted and they all agree. Hmmm

Research done by our findings is not one man's belief. Years of research from Kinesiology, Neuromechanics, biomechanics has gone into our research. A team of researchers of 20 years.

So your saying researchers from the American sport institute is wrong are you saying biomotion is wrong as well. Very interesting

honestly, I personally don't care about the theory.
In our field you don't last long in the game if your theories are flawed and don't get results.
All we care about is how to train athletes how to create better movement patterns.
Our focus is training athletes to create the right movements through training. We train the body to create better movement patterns.

Results speak louder then words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stinkler (Post 66826)

Hold on though . . . Y'all may not have said it . . . but I'm saying it . . . I'M SAYING HE'S EFFICIENT FOR THE TASK AT HAND . . . Hit it really far. So that came out of my world not y'all's . . . to me anyway the question then becomes . . . if these cats hit the ball far and we can just discount what they are doing whacky with their arms (which is a piece of it for them) . . . what are they doing with their pivot?

If there was a way to look at Hogan's pivot and JS's pivot . . . you'd see some definite similarities . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 66825)

Ben Hogans Pivot and Delivery Path match perfectly. If he were to allow his arms to move up and away from his torso, I think he would need to change his Pivot. But, his Pivot includes his sense of balance, timing, power, tempo, etc.

In Fact, his pivot is so designed, that he was able to keep his upper arms close to his Torso side and eliminate all unessential range of motion. Zone 1 and Zone 2 not only separate duties and independent but unified into a single motion. A combination of Regulated Power and Precision.

These Long Driver need huge swings. Super Wide stretched out Arm Range of Motion going high above their heads and except for their shoulders are completely disconnected from their torsos. As their Left heels are lowered they Sit-Down, which Brings the Right Hip forward which transfers weight to the ball of their right foot. They keep their weight right of center and use the ground pressure on the ball of their right foot to force the right hip Rotation just before release which drives the right shoulder, etc. That, and their ability to leg press 1200 pounds, allows the Big Dog to eat.

Both Hogan and the Long Drivers have managed to match Zone 1 components, variations, sequencing and spacing to make the best of Zone 2.

Ben Hogan aspired to be the best golfer.
The Long Drivers aspire to hit the ball as far as they can.

Different Goals, different Swings. The same 24 components.

Fair cop bucket, I didn't read it that way. I'm a little confused now about your actual point in relation to Biomechanics though?

Well explained Daryl, thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 66823)

Sounds good . . . do you have any before and after video? I'd be interested to see if you motion changed? Or if you were just generating more speed with the same motion?

I've uploaded a video I took in my backyard on 1 July, and then another tonight. There are already shots from April so that will give you something to compare against.

The 1 July 09 shots were after doing about a month of PST. Tonight would be about 2 and a half months, I estimate about 20 sessions which would take about 30 minutes each.

Actually I'll be interested myself in having a look - as I've said I have no pattern that I'm working towards, this stuff has just come out of the exercises.

I will add a proviso that all of these are taken without a ball, just practice swings. I have no idea how much this changes when I'm actually addressing a ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6CNJIhwWB8

Efficient and Effective

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 66823)

He has exercises that train your body to have more efficient and effective movement patterns, which have been proven to work through lots and lots of testing

I'm still a bit confused on what you measure and from what starting point? Efficient and effective movement patterns in relation to what? Effective as to what end?

Well bioengine is the only one who can help you understand the measurement. But what effective and efficient means to me is:

Creating clubhead speed with the least loss along the chain
Naturally creating a swing that works - not having to manipulate or try and control your body to avoid a bad action

biomechanics organisation has measured many of the worlds best athletes. That is what they assess you against. But what they have that matters for me is that they have exercises that have been scientifically tested to ensure that they have measurable effects on improving your biomechanics. There will be exercises that make your hips move more. There will be exercises that make them move less. Because your program is individually developed to improve your issues.

Hope that helps Bucket