JT,

You ask, "can hitters be natural drawers of the ball?" The answer is no because of the layback action of Angled Hinging. However, you can close the clubface sufficiently and line up closed to the target in order to move the ball from right to left toward the target using a PULL HOOK. OR, you can develop the skill to manipulate the clubface and use a Horizontal Hinge in order to Hit a TRUE DRAW.

Ah ok, thanks MJ. You state pretty much what i thought i had heard. So in order to draw naturally when hitting i have to use the compensation of introducing horizontal hinging. I just saw where you said you had the skill to do this, and kudo's to you. It might be a bit beyond me for a while tho. I'd say then that i was below plane the other day. Thanks again Joe :)

John

JT1,

It's not that I'm particularly skillful, the fact is that it's just NOT that difficult!

Fella's,
Don't forget about the ball position's effect to the various hinge actions.

Todd

First, I've never been successful Hitting a draw by moving the ball back and using an Angled Hinge. And secondly, assuming you can do it, just how far back do you move it for any particular club? For me, that guesstimation based on club, amount of draw wanted, unlevel lie, etc is much harder than simply using Horizontal Hinging with a normal ball position.

MJ,
Because you have not been successful with something does not make it wrong, you seem to be using your feel for your motion to instruct. This can be dangerous.
The beauty of TGM is that it allows for such individual motions, it is great that you can horizontal hinge with a hitting motion, but as far as someone else, they may not be able to make such adjustments. In the long run compatable components will always be the way to go.
The way I find out how much to change ball postion is by exploring the possibilities, trying this and that, just being a machine scientist.
By saying you have never been able to draw from a back ball position may lead me to believe you may not be hitting, but only you can correctly answer that question.
There are a quadrillion patterns in the book, if you find one that works for you great!!! Go for it, if it takes manipulations and you can make the on a consistent basis with ease that is wonderful. I tend to believe that if a player has the skill to do this, they could truly be great doing it the easiest way, but that being said to quote Mr. Kelley, "psychological needs must be met."

Just my thoughts,

Todd

Todd,

Homer said, "Hinge Action does NOT differentiate Hitting and Swinging". The all caps of "NOT" are Homer's, not mine. If what you say is true, Angled Hinging would be a REQUIREMENT for Hitting. So then, how would you execute and describe the valid Hor Hinge Hit? Note that I didn't describe a feel, but rather described a mechanical procedure.

You say, "The way I find out how much to change ball postion is by exploring the possibilities, trying this and that, just being a machine scientist." When on the course and faced with a unique set of circumstances, how do you explore the possibilities?

Please tell me how you can move the ball back, execute an Angled Hinge hitting the inside of the ball with an open clubface, and move the ball right to left.

Originally posted by MizunoJoe:
Please tell me how you can move the ball back, execute an Angled Hinge hitting the inside of the ball with an open clubface, and move the ball right to left.

A question I am trying to wrap my head around as well!

I'm assuming this has to do with the natural 'laying back' action of the angled hinge motion?

rrabick

MJ,
I didn't say it was a requirement, if you read further from Mr. Kelley in 10-19-0, he says "All are interchangeable - with reservations. Hitters using Horizontal hinging must consciously resist the tendency of right arm paddlewheel action towards angled hinging". He goes on to say,"Both procedures require skill in clubface manipulation." The both refering to swingers using angled hinge action.
While we are at it lets look at 10-10-C Angled Hinge Action, Mr. Kelley writes "It greatly simplifies Hitting."
Like I said before if it works for you have at it!!
Just one more question for you what left wrist action do you use?

todd

10-18-F with the roll supplied with the right forearm.

An Open And Shut Case
 

Interesting thread, fellows. Sorry I'm late...

The Hitter does indeed direct the #3 Pressure Point (Lag Pressure Thrust) along the Angle of Approach and thus through the inside-aft quadrant of the Ball. The wrinkle here is that, unlike when using the Swinger's Horizontal Hinging, you do not hit the Ball with an Open Clubface when applying the Hitter's Angled Hinging. Instead, you hit the Ball with a Closed Clubface.

The Clubface for Angled Hinging is aligned at Impact Fix Closed to the Target Line per 2-J-1 -- and the longer the Shot the more Closed the Clubface. Also, the further back the Ball is located toward the Right Foot, the more Closed the Clubface becomes to the Delivery Line and the Lag Pressure Point (7-11).

Thus, though the Lag Pressure is driven through the inside-aft quadrant of the Ball, the Closed Clubface 'wraps around' enough to impact the outside-aft quadrant. This action, at a minimum, offsets the Fading tendency of the Uncentered 'Layback Action' characteristic of the Angled Hinge Motion. When the divergence of Clubhead Path and Clubface Alignment is more severe, the result is a Draw or Hook.

Yoda,

You said, "...the result is a Draw or Hook." I think you're half right. That is, if you hit the outside aft quadrant of the ball, it will start left of the target line and cannot be a draw, which starts right of the target and moves left. The only way to start the ball out to the right of the target and move it back, if hitting the outside quad, is with a cross-line clubhead path. Either, you must line up closed to the target and pull hook it, or keep your back to the target causing a cross-line path and pull hook it.

I'll second that...

Yesssssssssssssssssssssss?
 

So maybe i can hit a natural draw with the hitting stroke simply by playing it back a bit?

John

Drawing The Ball
 

Yes, John, you can produce a 'natural Draw' when Hitting (or 'Manipulated Hands' Swinging) simply by playing the Ball back a bit -- provided you (1) align the Clubface Closed to the Flight Line per 2-J-1 and (2) Rotate your Grip per 7-2. You can do the same thing as a True Swinger by Rotating your Plane Line. Opposite procedures are employed to Fade the Ball.

There are not enough words to properly explain and telegraph into your brain what I've just said. Therefore, we will soon produce a video to collectively explain and demonstrate these relatively simple procedures...for the first time in the history of Golf Instruction.

Actually
 

tho there are many posts in here i still don't understand, this one is absolutely crystal clear Yoda :)

John

Re: Actually
 

Just make sure that the you understand that to make the ball go from R-L and ending up on the target with an Angled Hinge Hitting motion, you must line up to the right of the target and pull hook it. Notice that Yoda says that the clubface must be closed with respect to the FLIGHT LINE which will be cross-line to the target line. This flight line becomes the new plane line. It's not a true draw, but a pull hook with respect to this new plane line.

I beleive I understand what Yoda is saying although I think Mizuno has a point to which I'd like to explore a little more.

If the ball is moved back from normal straightaway ball flight location, will we not actually be making contact with the ball on more of a 'cross-line' approach and is this why it can start out to the right before drawing?

And if so, must we believe that clubhead path determines intial ball flight direction and clubface determines ball curvature? Not meaning to open a can of worms here, just want to completley understand.

rrabick

I think the problem here is that there are two different sets of ball quadrants. One with respect to the target/plane line and another with respect to the flight line. The closed clubface and outside aft quadrant Yoda talks about is with respect to the flight line. But with respect to the target/plane line, the face is open and the ball contact point is on the inside quadrant. The fact is that if you hit the plane line version of the outside aft quadrant of the ball with a clubface which is closed with respect to the plane line, the ball will start left of the target.

Maybe i didn't follow
 

MJ - "you must line up to the right of the target and pull hook it"

are you saying a closed stance is now used? The way i follow is that the ball back produces the change in plane line.

John

Re: Maybe i didn't follow
 

Moving the ball back does not change the plane line. You just catch the ball earlier, but the low point is still in the same place, it's just further forward from the ball. It's still an on-plane clubhead path. That's different than changing the plane line to be cross-line to the target line, which is most easily done by closing the stance. This will give a clubhead PATH to the right of the target line.

Ok, so if i move the ball back in my stance without closing my stance i still can't hit a draw while hitting? The ONLY way to hit a draw while hitting via chapter 12 is to close the stance, correct? Thanks for your time MJ :)

John

If you close your stance, there is no need to move the ball back. Just close the clubface. You won't be hitting a true draw, but a pull hook which starts out right of the target and moves back towards the target.

The closed to closed thing really strikes a chord with me! The first instructor I ever had...waaaayyy back in the late 1960's, early 1970's, told me I had a closed to close clubface action (or something like that), and that a good model for me among big time PGA Tour pros was Leee Trevino. (I recall Trevino being described as closed to open). That was just one thing I remember. I have always felt that guy was the best instructor I have ever had.

Every other instructor since then has admonished me for having a closed clubface at address. I have squared it a bit, but find I cannot really let go on drives without losing them to the right, or pull hooking them. My best drives are long and right, as are my shots off the deck with my 12 degree 3W.

I'm going to have to work on closing the driver clubface a bit at address and see what happens (and I may as well work on closing the clubface when I put the ball back with the wedges and short irons).

I've got a copy of an instruction book Lee Buck wrote. It's now out of print. He actually advises closing the clubface at address. I would say based on what he said in his book that he played from a 10-5-B Square-Open stance. He said he intentionally took it back outside the Target Line but then his Downstroke was down the target line. He said by doing this he had the clubface looking at the target longer than anybody in golf.

Also, he played with what looks like to me a 10-2-D grip. Mr. K says with this grip "The palm of the Right Hand moves toward Impact exacly like a paddle-wheel rotating On-Plane - no separate Rolling Motion until after Impact." This is Angled Hinging. Lee described himself as a "blocker" on his Golf Channel thing.

Check out the post that Yoda did on the Impact Bag. Look at the picture of Lee post impact. No rolling there. If you can find any swing sequences on Lee, his Backstroke is definitely to Top and not End. Watch how his Right Forearm Wedge stays solid and how his Right Shoulder is driven down plane. Check out follow through. In 1-L, "The Club starts up-and-in after "Low Point" but the thrust continues Down Plane during Follow-Through." Not many got this better than Lee Buck.

Gotta love that dude!

Very good observation Mr. Spicoli. :lol:

did somebody order a pizza? :wink:

What's wrong with a little pizza on OUR time? :roll:

I'll have to look into that! Power accumulator #3 kicks my butt. I just can't get that wrist action to move smoothly though impact.

For Yoda or Ted - was this video ever done?
 

Was this video ever done?

"We Have Met the Enemy. . ." -- Pogo
 

Sorry, Bob . . .

This one slipped through the cracks, and the Golf World still waits.

:crybaby:

Another item for the 'to do' list!

:eyes:

Well, if you can't get it done in 700 years . . . . . .:)

No worries whatsoever; I just thought I might have missed it.

This is so true! How often would a short simple video make thousands of words redundant thus saving countless hours of confusion and frustration?