Ben Doyle has the patience of Job.

Did they have video camera's back in those days? :D

I guess what I was getting at is Ben's ongoing focus on the fundamentals while teaching a particular topic.

For example the sand drill, he seems to be trying to instill a feel for creating lag and impact without "adding". While doing this he is also sweeping over the student like a wave with ongoing fundamental reminders such as proper set-up to the ball.

My analogy is that Doyle seems to teach like waves rolling in from the sea. When the wave breaks on the beach it is at the high point (destination of the lesson taught). To reach the high point the wave must wash in and then wash back out from whence it came (cover the same old ground). Repeat the wave process and you have a pretty effective teaching method.

Thats what I meant by repetition. The kid wants to smash drives and probably would rather only be talking/practing that. But he is high and dry like old driftwood stuck above high tide. Old driftwood doesn't remember or recognize the feel of water. Ben is trying to gently pull that driftwood from being stuck on the beach to starting over and he does it gentle wave after wave.

I don't think there is a grand "a-ha!", the "a-ha!" is accumulated over some time as all the parts of the puzzle come together.

Abudoggie

From 4-D-1, "Hitters, especially must learn to straighten the Right Arm without flattening the Right Wrist."

Is this a prerequisite to Ben's drill or, was it included in the drill?

DRW

a little mercy
 

Some empirically researched science and mercy for any student and instructor.

A student is not just learning a new swing, his brain is remapping a procedural motor skill. see "proactive inhibition".

An instructor has to induce "retroactive inhibition". Some times it takes singular focus and abundant repetiton.

Extra credit reading on the learning component of Cognitive Behavior Theory.....

Student - Where trouble really comes from. 99% of the time we are getting in our own way. And I'm not talking about swing mechanics.

Nitpicking.......

1) Most instructors I have had do not take a few minutes at the beginning of a lesson to explain What we are going to learn that day, Why, and it's significance.

2) 0% of instructors have provided a feedback questionaire after the lesson(s).

In professional training/instruction for corporations, missing #1 will make your presentation much more difficult. Missing #2 will guarantee you will never maximize the experience for the customer. You will also get fired as feedback is always a nonnegotiable requirement. :)

Two-Man Team
 

Thanks, Charlie. What items should be included in a model format? When should the feedback be solicited, e.g., immediately after or some time after or both? How can the questionaire be used to best 'maximize the experience' for both the student and the instructor?

Re: a little mercy
 

My main issue with the student wasn't his grasping of what he was being told. It was that he really wasn't listening in the first place.

It doesn't take a person who has been playing golf for 100 yrs to be able to approach a ball with your left foot an inch away and such as Doyle was asking.

I think if he listened rather than thought ahead he waould grasp things faster.

Getting It
 

All I can add is "try it".

Go see Ben and let him put you through his lesson format. It may look easy to the audience, but if you are a flipper or have throwaway it's a very challenging endevour.
Hit with the pivot, aiming point, the setup routine, swivel, snap release, always complete the finish...etc...If you are used to conventional instruction, Ben's lesson will overwhelm you very quickly. As it did this student and as it did me. :D

But later, the magic starts to happen. 8)

Bagger

Re: a little mercy
 

Trying again - for the last time.

All I can say is that if you or anyone else has a first lesson with Ben it will be a similar experience. You will feel very stupid at times.

If you do not believe it - try to drive a right-hand steering car (for the first time). You have every bit of knowledge you need to do it. You do not even need to listen to anyone to acquire information. But you need to break a habit. Do not be surprised if your first move to entering the car will be grabbing the doorhandle - of the LEFT door. :P

A student must absorb and apply. Application does not come instantly.

Re: a little mercy
 

My guess is the two most common things to overcome when working with Ben's drills for the first time are:

Hitting fat - Most golfers probably have the ball further back in the stance than what Ben teaches. This requires the student to adjust the aiming point which definetly requires work on the students part to get used to.

Axis Tilt - More axis tilt is required to achieve the snap release. When people try this, they drop their head to achieve this resulting in inconsistent contact. Once they keep the head stationary, they are on the way to achieving better ball striking. The axis tilt will be achieved if the head is stationary, and they let the right should work down-plane.

Re: Getting It
 

What is the timeframe of this later? Weeks or months?

Also - how much elbow grease does the student need to aply while waiting?

Does to magic happen in small steps or is it a Satori?


Vaako

The Road
 

Vaako,

I'm not an instructor so I can't speak to the average amount of time it takes students to master a new stroke pattern but in terms of when the magic starts, I believe it is immediate, but almost unperceptible to the observer in the beginning. I would bet that the student was feeling big changes in his swing and as we can see, couldn't wait to try them out on a full stroke. As observers, we don't see much progress and wonder why he keeps taking full strokes every chance he gets.

If you watch the student progress on the tire and in chip shots, he does make progress. His biggest issue in my opinion is "adding". In other words, to actively use the right wrist at impact. He has many other issues, but Ben kept coming back to that issue. Before someone can advance, throwaway must be addressed.

My lesson with Ben was similar. I was "adding" as well. Once I felt the proper use of the right wrist (Bent, Level, Frozen) through impact, then I could focus on other elements of the swing. And there are many other elements that needed just as much attention. I worked for several months on just the wrist conditions through release until I could drag the clubhead way past the ball with an inert wrist. It made a huge impact on my game and that is just one small element. I still have to monitor the hands carefully to keep from reverting back. Now that I've switched to hitting, it is much easier to keep my right wrist in check. I have also incorporated Ben's setup routine. It's a no-brainer.

I doubt that Ben has ever had a mid to low handicap student come to him and leave the lesson with full mastery of everything he teaches in 2 hours. Would be interesting to know! I doubt that even the seasoned Pro's that come to Ben get it all. Most of us mortals just "get" one or two things out of the lesson, but once the proper look and feel is established in the lesson, it sticks if you let it. As you progress in the pattern, you can watch the lesson again and pick up other elements to work on.

The real gift here is that you get many years worth of instruction in a two hour lesson and at least one part of the lesson will produce immediate, positive results. Ben (and every other TGM instructor) puts you on the right road, especially if you are a swinger.

For me, I thank Ben for setup routine, aiming point and a passive right wrist. I have had fleeting success with a delayed snap release swing, but am nowhere near being able to successfully utilize it. If I were trying to master the swinging pattern that Ben teaches, there would be much more. But for now, I'm a Hitting machine.

Bagger

Thanks, Bagger.


Vaako

Re: Two-Man Team
 

Sorry for the slow response. I was duly punished by my inbox at work for the audacity of going on vacation. :)

Model format?

I am emailing you a Word document that is a tweaked sample of an eval sheet. I think within it are a handful of good "checklist" questions for the one lesson/instructor/student situation. In its entirety, its primary application is for 1-3 day "programs" with a number of students. Again, it's a sample including my guesstimate of pertinent golf related questions. Of course, you would know better what you want to find out. There are about 20 questions that provide for grading and comment. I included both because some students like it quick, some like to write treatises. :) The sections are divided into 4 parts : General, Instructor, Content and Facilities. The reason is that sometimes students' reactions "bleed" into other areas which are not responsible for his/her issue.

When?

The standard is BEFORE they leave. You can give them the form, a stamped/addressed envelope and taxi money to drive to the mailbox and they still won't mail it in. This part is opinion.... I wish it could be done before the final summation/review/questions. That way they could be "hawked" for easy issues that can be dealt with quickly.

Sometimes the prospective students are sent correspondence before the program to define scope and manage expectations. I only mention this because I got a great lesson by how perfectly you managed the opening for the Rob Noel Master class.

Followup evals are a "nice to have". It shows the commitment to the student and can be leveraged for references and further mentoring services.

Student AND Instructor

Students- More and more, people expect some type of measurement/ assessment. Whether it is a product or service. They like the fact that you need and are actively asking for their input. They assume that their judgements will be taken into consideration and utilized some how. It's quicker than a conversation and provides some anonyminity, so you get the real deal.

Instructors- It's all about continuous improvement. What works better. What to add. What to subtract. What to refine. It's a great way (quickly, succinctly, and simply) to find out what the people think/thought about each part of the experience. You find out if they learned, were overwhelmed, or whatever (from their perspective). If maximum effectiveness is the goal, it doesn't hurt to ask the customer.

Two-Man Team

I took this to heart and I don't see it successful any other way.


Charlie

edit: I rilly kan spell, I'm just a lousy typer :)

Mail Call
 

Thanks, Charlie. I will implement some sort of post-lesson program in the near future. However, because my sessions generally run up until the time the student is in danger of missing his airplane, I may have to rely on the 'return envelope' method!

..........

Re: Two-Man Team
 

Theodan,
Could you possibly send me a copy of the sheet, as a teaching pro myself, I would be interested in using this at my facility.
Many Thanks.

I have been helping out a local university, teaching as an adjunct professor the past 3 years and my students have filled out university-prescribed evaluations each semester. Regarding univeristy instructor evaluations, I observed a few things about my students (I did the same things when I was in college):

Lots of students are afraid they will get a bad grade if they give a bad "grade"...even if the evaluation is done after final grades are due or even if administered by a third party. Others just don't care or would rather be sleeping/eating/drunk/golfing, so they give all good or average scores (I watched them bubble in ansers without even reading the questions). Some students are ticked because they slept through the semester and didn't get a good grade, so they give you as low an evaluation as possible. Some think your God's gift to the university just because you're there. The rest provide honest feedback based on their experience in the course. The evaulation results that I get break it down by student (no names) and a median. I was always at or above average on most every category, but I never took any comments personally or took much stock in the results because I knew students didn't fill them in honestly. I guess the results would have indicated if there was a major problem, but for the most part I think they used were for low-level quality control not necessarily achieving excellence as an instructor.

Having been on the other end of the evaluation process, I fill out those sorts of things more honestly now. I'd much rather have a bad, honest evaluation than an "I don't care" evaluation; at least then I know what things I need to work on.

I had a set of 3 golf lessons (non-TGM) about 2 years ago...I wish he would have given me an evaluation to fill out because it was terrible...at one lesson he was asking me how to fix his pull! The only good that came out of it was that it pushed me to find better golf instruction material (TGM!).

Golf Instruction/School Feedback
 

I'd ask these three questions.

1) Based on your expectations, what do you feel are the three best things about the school?

2) Based on your expectations, what do you feel are the three worst things about the school?

3) How can we improve the school?

I am a student and not a teacher though. With these three questions...You will find out what the expectations were by the answers. You should ask "are" instead "were" (three best/worst things). "Things" or another generic word lets the student tell you what he/she felt was important. Don't ask "what would you change about the school" that implies you may not think anything needs improving. I'd ask only these three questions.

BTW I am offering free of charge to any golf instructors/teachers my own feedback to you in exchange for lessons and/or instruction. Please PM me if there are any takers. :D
Thanks


PChandler

I worked on this today
 

I hit quite a few shanks with pitches and half shots. Everytime I try to lead with my hips and hold the release the shanks apear. Other shots fade when I hit them. I don't expect results right away, but the shanks scare the ou know what out of me and make me feel I am going about this.


As for aiming point. I always thought it was out in front of the ball, but I then see Doyle putting the aiming point out in front of the left foot. Is this right?

Since this is now the"how to structure an evaluation thread" I can chime in with something I know a little about:

I'm not sure major likes/dislikes provides useful feedback about learning. (I really liked the instructor, I liked the facility, I hated the weather.)

Its all about the state of knowledge/skill upon arrival versus departure. What degree of impact did the session have.

Here is one way to do it presuming a lesson (or three day school) has some type of structure. On the left side of the page list the major concepts and/or skills that are taught. Then have two columns for response that ask the student A) what was their understanding(or ability to execute) of the concept/skill PRIOR to the course (1-10) then ask B) what is their understanding/ability to execute upon COMPLETING the course.

That format is simple and quick to fill-out and gives an instructor a guide of their effectiveness transfering knowledge (rather than spouting data).

Then you could supplement with a section that allows a student to write-out more detailed feedback using a STOP-START-CONTINUE format.

What should we start doing that we are not?
What should we stop....?
What did you find particularly effective that we should continue?

After having completed a zillion evaluations over the years and having read a zillion more as an instructor (but not for golf....). This is a simple format that I have found that meets three imperatives:
- quick for the student
- quick for the instructor
- provide a standard for measurable/trackable results at both the student and the session level

Abudoggie

I'-l-l Be There!
 

Thanks for your insights, AbuD. I'll be in touch via PM.

I really enjoy hearing the sounds of impact on these clips. Even though the student isn't always dead on, you can clearly hear that he is hitting the ball far better than most ever do.

Thank you again for making this happen!

Abu - a useful feedback loop I have used before (developing software) and one that can work well.

Re: I worked on this today
 

Wanole,

Welcome to the one of the toughest swinging procedures to master but probably the purest. I think Brian mentioned that Ben prefers to teach championship level swinging procedure. I'm paraphrasing but it's close. "If" you stay with it, you will begin to see why the students in nearly every Doyle video struggle with the issues you mentioned above.

It ain't easy!
But there is always time...and dirt... :D

In terms of aiming point, it varies from club to club. Assuming the student had a wedge in his hand, and Ben had his left foot one inch in front of the ball then yes, the hands would be over the left foot at impact.

Bagger

Aiming Point Redux
 

Wanole,

I addressed a similar question in the thread accompanying the first Ben Doyle video. I've reprinted that response below.

############################################

You have referred to two different Aiming Points. Both accomplish the desired Impact Hand Location, one directly and the other indirectly.

The first is the direct approach and refers to Ben's use of the term 'Aiming Point' as it relates to the Hands. He has defined this as the Line of Sight through the Impact Hand Location to a point well in front of the Ball (and even the Left Foot). I have not personally talked with Ben about this, but I believe this Line of Sight could be further defined as that spot on the Plane Line where the Right Forearm points at Impact. This, in turn, defines the Right Forearm Angle of Approach,that relationship established at Impact Fix of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge to the Ball and to the Plane Line. It is this alignment that the Forearm must leave and then precisely return.

The second refers to the Aiming Point as defined in The Golfing Machine. This is the Aiming Point of the Thrust, usually the Ball (with a five-iron) or just slightly in front of it (shorter Clubs) or behind it (longer Clubs). It is mandatory for the control of the Snap Releases (which happen so fast it is impossible to actually monitor the Impact Hand Location). This Line of Thrust technique automatically drives the Hands toward their Impact Fix Location and is thus the indirect equivalent of the Impact Hands Location procedure.

Edz,
I like watching Ben's swing, and listening to impact, too.
But, i noticed during one of the clips, he used his right hand on the club to brush away a ball. He went from a bent right wrist to a completely flat right wrist, and hit the ball very lightly. However, the sound of the "impact" was still of "high quality."
So, I think that it was mainly the audio system which was creating that great sounding impact that we heard on the clips.

Re: Aiming Point Redux
 

ok thanks. So as a swinger what should I focus on to make sure my
hands finish ahead of the ball while pivoting past the ball?
I was hitting fat shots (assume from throwaway) when working on holding the angle
on the way thru like Ben was teaching. I'm trying to educate my hands, but I
guess I can't educate if I don't know where to educate them too.

As a swinger I don't really thrust anything, right? I would love to take my "hitting" motion out of my swing and just let CF take over, but to be honest (after playing for 20 yrs) after
just turning the hips to start the downswing I get kind lost. I subconciously
hit at the ball with my hands on the way down. Should I just relax my hands an fling them thru impact with the pivot?

When I do retain some kind of angle the hosel is meeting the ball first. Am I holding it too long? I would like to have a snap release since I am a swinger and want to take teh hitting
motion/feeling out of my swing.

Thanks

Joe

Some of the best drivers of the ball do NOT use a snap release. Use a Sweep release like Watson. Watch Lynn sweep release in the 'swing- hit discussion' clip. He throws out the club (sweep). It works very well on the tee and with woods. And it is a Swing Stroke.

In fact the Sweep release is what lesser educated instructors call 'early release or springing or casting.' All misleading terms because the hands still lag the clubhead. It is just in a SWEEPING motion. Check that clip- it is still the best source of information on the clip site for me. Watch the right shoulder crank and throw out the club. Beautiful.

I was really profiting from the Ben doyle series. Will there be any more?

Lessons of a Lifetime
 

B.

Much more...In late August!

Here is your opportunity. :wink:

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/v...6e4 03da172ee

There will be cameras there, but don't miss out if you can make it.

Bagger