Geez...you guys ought to be lawyers!

lcg
 

I'll try to post a more detailed post on this in the next couple of weeks- if things work out, but for now.

The means is that - the shaft is in a subservient role- it has a direct relationship with the lcg but can only follow the lcg, the lcg is the controlling force.

Does it differ from hitting to swinging? No, the straight line shaft rotates around the lcg regardless of whether your hitting or swinging. However, in a more isolated observation of shaft flexing activity - there definitely is a difference in shaft reaction to hitting versus swinging. For example, at impact the swinger would have more clubhead droop and the hitter would have more clubhead bow (prestressed clubshaft), based on the different acceleration methods used.

turned shoulder
 

YES-That's right.

Late post
 

yes, but are we talking about the swing as a thing-in-itself, or merely it's appearance? Now stop critiquing my pure reason!!! :)

What does this do to the magic of the right forearm - how can the right forearm trace if the right elbow is off plane? Or does the right elbow (and hence forearm) move through multiple planes, but remain on (a) plane to the plane's baseline (that really does sound like Kant!)

By the way Mike, I usally find your posts pretty phenomenal... noumenal even!:p

Chris

Nice Catch!
 

Chris,
Nice catch on the philosophy and the golf! You're right on in regards to your comments and questions regarding the right forearm. You caught me! I'm not sure you really can trace the forearm- I mean you can, and/or you feel like you can but I'm not really sure in a "good" golf stroke that the right forearm does or needs to stay on plane for any extended period going back or coming down. The hands and clubshaft - yes! Just my take.

Mike O.

thanks Mike :)

Changed the quotation to include all both my questions. Now, I'm dying here, whats the deal!

And I also noticed that the more Trigger Delay one has, the less likely the Right Forearm stays on plane for an extended period from Release to Follow Through.

Your preselected plane will be your Basic Plane Angle (10-6). So if you are shifting from the Turned Shoulder Plane to the Elbow Plane on the downstroke your hands and clubshaft should move towards that plane angle. Your Right Shoulder would never move onto the Elbow Plane because it's too shallow.

The rear shoulder can move on, above or below the established Turned Shuolder Plane (angle from ball to right shoulder at the top only, not during downstroke) during startdown.

I'm still all fogged up.

In that example, shifting in the Downstroke from the Turned Shoulder Plane to the Elbow Plane, which is the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane (Basic Plane Angle)? Or is the Basic Plane Angle a plane all of its own?

I believe Homer generally refers to the sweetspot plane - as discussed in 2-F. And did you mean pp#3? (just curious).
But Ed...what if the hands are monitoring the sweetspot during start up? I know for me, an offplane motion has a significantly different feel then onplane. More effort, etc. So....

Does the tail wag the dog or is it the other way around? ;)

Elbow Plane

PP#3 is useful to monitor during the motion in part because it is the 'last link' in the chain and because of its relative (on plane rotation) relationship to PP#1. That said, for 'on plane' motion and for clubHEAD control, I find looking at the plane which PP#1 travels more helpful when looking at someones overall ability to stay on plane.

If you look at the tour players you will generally find many variations in how the clubSHAFT moves, shifts, but in many cases the hands, pp#1 in particular, will be at or close to zero shift. Important to note that I am not talking specifically of Homer's view of zero shift, in which the shaft/SS is considered - I'm simply looking at the hands at the top, at impact and a spot extending down the left wedge to the ground. In effect this is is a line drawn along the undersides of the arms at address, down to the ground.

A great photo posted by Mathew:




Furyk is a great example. His hands travel on a quite verticle plane with relatively little 'shift'. Someone like Appleby is also very 'on plane' from this same viewpoint, but simply with a less verticle plane angle, and in his case, also with a shaft/SS that is very close to a zero shift as defined by Homer

No doubt that there is a different feel to being on plane vs. off plane, however IF the wedges are set properly and STAY set, there is no need to monitor anything other than the hands and their travel. If your hands are on plane (in my view) but the club is not, you can certainly bet that the wedges are not in place!

The Flying Wedges, the imperatives - a shortcut to great golf ;)

The end of innocence
 

You mean my right forearm isn’t really magic – it was all smoke and mirrors???

Your point about the right elbow (and its implications for the right forearm) seems massive to me. I had thought that the right forearm was to trace the baseline of the plane back and through, but if the right elbow is only on plane at impact, this is impossible! Instead the right forearm must trace an outside path (outside going back, out to in coming through the ball). At least with a zero shift...

Is the ‘magic’ of the right forearm then, only that it shows from impact fix the exact up and down motion the hands/clubhead need to take – that is, is it merely a good visual analogue of the plane and the delivery path of the hands?

Chris

Tong thanks for your patience.

So, taking what I’ve learnt and implanting our example into the Homer quote I get this.

After a 13-B or 12-C Backstroke Shoulder Turn, the Right Shoulder moves toward Impact precisely on the Elbow Plane, establishing and supporting the Power Package Delivery alignments.

Either it's impossible for the Elbow Plane to be the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane with either of those Shoulder Turns, or I'm still lost in the fog. You’ve already said that the right shoulder would never move onto the Elbow Plane, so I know it could never move precisely on that plane.

I can't see how any type of shoulder turn would allow the right shoulder to move toward impact precisely on any plane but the Turned Shoulder Plane (at Startdown and assuming that the plane angle has its Base Line on the Square Plane Line), but if you tell me that I need to understand 13-B and 12-C (I don't) to understand this quote, then I'll give it a rest until I've had another good read of my book.

Yes, you've got it!

Arrggg, I said that same thing many posts ago. How do you reconcile that with the Homer quote?

Lost innocence
 

Chris, A few thoughts:
First, It's never been my approach in posting in regards to the golfing machine- to point out my personal differences of opinion or my uncertainty regarding some of the concepts. My approach has been to share what I know - to help others better understand this great piece of work- The Golfing Machine. So, I "recklessly" posted my personal hunch on this right forearm on plane issue- when I would have preferred to leave it alone. If others would be interested in posting some photo's and bantering this topic- I'd be interested to see what they have to say- but I'd be more interested in listening to their comments than picking or proving one particular side.

Secondily, Let's say that the right forearm is only on plane at impact (not saying that it isn't or couldn't be on plane earlier or later) but as you noted - if it is on-plane only at impact then while tracing the plane line with the forearm may not be a requirement or a useful tool - nothing much else besides the tracing right forearm necessarily changes. For example if you read 7-3 (Magic Right Forearm) not one issue would change.

Finally, I think to determine in what manner the right forearm works through the release period- that it would be helpful to look at other sports such as tennis and javelin and including golf- to determine the proper right forearm movement through the release period and impact(tennis) and the letting go point with the javelin, in comparison to the plane of motion of each movement.

In Summary I don't think it's that big of a loss of innocence IF the right forearm didn't trace the plane line, BUT I understand your emotion- I've been there many times with this book.

Mike O.

Again, considering the starting point is always the Turned Shoulder Plane, how can the rear shoulder be moving on a TGM defined plane at startdown unless it is the Turned Shoulder Plane? :confused:

Like you said it starts at the TSP. There are many plane angles that can go through the same point. Some players move their right shoulder to a steeper plane immediately at startdown -- i.e. above the TSP.

OK, might be getting somewhere. So with a 13-B or 12-C Backstroke Shoulder Turn the Turned Shoulder Plane has a chance of being the same angle as say the Elbow Plane? Your saying that the quote allows for a plane shift of the rear shoulder before it starts to move directly towards impact down the preselcted Downstroke Clubshaft Plane? Is this one of those obscure moves that would never be advised for anyone? Are there any pics of say someone, at startdown, shifting their shoulder to a more upright plane than the TSP then moving the shoulder toward impact down that plane? Or at startdown shifting the shoulder down to a flatter plane than the TSP?

Don't worry, these will be my last questions on this subject. No doubt there are more important aspects of TGM that I'm yet to get a good grasp of.