Do you think that Homer would change his mind on this subject in later editions if he was still around???.

OKOK you got me Mr. Blake.

What I should have said is that I personally would like to hear more than "This is what Homer said in The Golfing Machine."

Again....Homer IS the man.....but I would like to know more before I regard having a completely Stationary Head and a Tripod (head exactly between the feet) as something which ALL golfers must attain (even though it's not an Imparative).

I know Homer has done all these years of research...etc. etc. etc. so maybe everyone should just believe him. Maybe that's what we should do.....

.....but I dunno.....

....Brian seems to really believe in what he's saying.....and much more importantly, I believe he does have something in his argument. It is a reasonable debate IMO.

...

Lynn- do you have any reasons why you think Brian is wrong based on your OWN experience (teaching experience especially)?

I suspect you must have something.

Git' the facts straight
 

BTW, I think if you and Brian could both lay out exactly what you think in one plane that would greatly clarify what’s what been going on in the recent threads on this topic.

Here are a few things that we should know:

-Tripod (head directly between feet) ALWAYS?
…exceptions?:

-Stationary (no Sway) ALWAYS?
…exceptions?:

-What’s ideal? Anything?
OR…in which circumstances is WHAT ideal?

-Through neck centre viable option as part of PERMANENT procedure?
…or only to “train pivot” or w/e?

Add if you care to.

A proper RFT does not require a moving head. So why move it? Check out the latest Ted Fort pics
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=2005.

Forty-Two Years With One Pivot Center
 

The Golfing Machine® as we know it was the labor of genius for forty-two years.

The Stationary Head as the Pivot Center was a bedrock point from which that genius never varied.

So, do I think Homer Kelley would have switched to a Non-Centered Pivot over the last twenty years?

No.

In fact, he codified the Pivot Center concept in the as-yet-unpublished 7th edition as the Pivot Swing Center Tripod.

Do I think he would have embraced a different Pivot Center?

No.

Remember, his primary reference during the early years was Ben Hogan's Power Golf, the very same text from which photos have been extracted to build a case for the 'between the shoulders' Pivot Center.

Would he have changed his mind had he found evidence to the contrary?

Absolutely he would have.

But then again, in more than forty years...

He didn't.

By the Book
 

OK. I am posting this not necessarily to further this debate but for the benefit of those interested in Mr. Kelley's position on the Head as the Pivot Center.

Since this is a Forum and website devoted to the advancement of G.O.L.F. I will bore you or engage you (depending on your voracity for reading the Yellow Book) with the areas in which the word "head" is mentioned in the 6th edition of The Golfing Machine. These quotes have been taken out of context so I hope that they will not be misleading as a result. I think these quotes are illustrative on Mr. Kelley's position. Anything not in bold is MY OPINION and to be interpreted as such.

As stated, the Stationary Post is defined in 1-L titled MACHINE CONCEPT. Here we are told that the player is to view his body as a "machine" which of course is the central thesis of the work.

1-L MACHINE CONCEPT
1. The Stationary Post (player’s head) accurately returns the Clubhead through the ball (Centered Arc).
2. The Post may turn (Pivot) but does not “sway” or “bob.”

The word HEAD next appears in Chapter 2: Statement of Principle. The word PRINCIPLE is defined as "A rule or law concerning the functioning of natural phenomena or mechanical processes." So in Chapter 2 Mr. Kelley is stating what he believes to be the rules governing the Machine's operation.

The Mechanics of Golf is the production and manipulation of the “Line of Compression.” Precision is recognizing and reconciling minute differentiations

A. The Three Basic Essentials are:
1. A stationary Head

Per the above the Mechanics of Golf is about STLOC and Mr. Kelley believed the Stationary Head to be ESSENTIAL to this process. Essential is defined as "Basic or indispensable; necessary." Imperative is defined as "Having the power or authority to command or control." Therefore the Stationary Head doesn't have the power to control the LOC. However, it is indispensable. So pretty important?

So on we go to the next HEAD . . .

2-H SHOULDER MOTIONS
The spine, between the shoulders, is the center of the Shoulder Turn only, not of the Left Arm, except by specific extension of the Swing Radius. Because, Swinging from the Wrists, the Left Shoulder, the Right Elbow, the Waist or the Feet, show it to have just to many exceptions. Though the “Head” Pivot Center is recommended, it is not at all mandatory.

But the Shoulders do have crucial On Plane functions – synchronizing and aligning the Pivot Motion and Thrust with those of the Power Package (Chapter 6). “On Plane” Right Shoulder Motion is possible only by titling its axis – the spine.

Being a part of the Pivot and the Power Package, the Right Shoulder must reconcile them by moving with the greatest precision for thrust, speed, direction and distance. (7-3) So the Right Shoulder does not flap around haphazardly – it has many responsibilities. And variations in its Impact location will vary the Right Elbow’s Impact Bend and so may alter the Impact alignment of the Clubface.

So in the section above, Mr. Kelley explicitly states that the "Head" Pivot Center is RECOMMENDED but not NECESSARY. Please notice the sections in red. I think this will give you an idea of what the "Head" Pivot Center relates to . . . the mission critical functions of the club being On-Plane, the alignment of the Clubface, and the location of the Right Elbow.

Does this mean that movement of the head could impact the following? being On-Plane or off-plane? Low Point? The alignment of the Clubface? Draw your conclusions . . .

2-J-1 IMPACT ALIGNMENTS
Clubface alignment also includes the requirement that the center of the Clubhead arc be so located that the Clubface strikes the ball before it strikes the ground. If the Clubface is centered on the ball while soled behind it any distance whatsoever, the radius of the Clubhead arc must be shortened or the Club will meet the ground precisely where it had been soled. This procedure of shortening the radius of the stroke is popular – that is pulling in the Hands at Impact by raising the head and shoulders a guess-timated distance, or pulling back the Left Shoulder, or bending the Left Arm, all with that same “precision.”

The word HEAD again appears in Impact Alignments, a section of obvious importance. It seems that via section in red, a head that moves results in a shortened radius and thus a loss of precision in Impact Alignments, the title of this section. This goes a long with the next place HEAD appears, Bobbing.

3-F-7-C BOBBING is raising and/or lowering the Head by faulty movement of the back or knees, and disrupts the Shoulder-to-ball radius.

7-14 HIP TURN The Hip Turn as a Stroke Component is strictly the product of the Knee Bend and the Waist Bend. Not otherwise could the weight be shifted and the Shoulder Turn Axis be tilted without moving the Head. A Hula Hula flexibility allows the Hips and Shoulders to be independent but coordinate and so avoid Right Elbow – and – Hip interference and its “Roundhousing” Throwaway (4-D-0) during the Start Down – the Delivery Line ROLL PREPARATION (12-3-22).

Except for its being, in itself, the Weight Shift, the Hip Turn is a motion permitting – rather than causing – the other effects, actions and motions of the Pivot. Weight Shift is strictly a HIP MOTION. Substituting a Head Motion and/or Knee Motion will make Swaying inevitable.

Per the above seems that Mr. Kelley felt that head movement has some serious implications.

7-16 KNEE ACTION Actually, the primary function of Knee Action – as with Waist Bend – is to maintain a motionless head during the Stroke.

9-1 ZONE #1 includes all the elements of Body movement and balance, and defines the geometrical alignments and relationships of the Body Components. The Pivot involves twisting the body and shifting the weight during the Stroke so as to maintain balance, a motionless head and any required tilt of the torso.

Per the above the "motionless head" is linked to balance, which of course is the 2nd BASIC ESSENTIAL.

AXIS TILT Example – pouring tea.
Mechanical – To change direction, the helicopter Pilot alters the plane of the rotating blades by tilting their axis in the new direction.
Golf – To change the plane of the Shoulder Turn without moving the Head, the golfer must tilt the Shoulder Axis by moving the Hips.

BALANCE Example – a hula dancer.
Mechanical – State in which all opposing forces cancel each other out.
Golf – Holding the center of gravity of the body inside The Stance without moving the Head.

Again the "motionless head" linked to Balance i.e. the Second Basic Essential.

PIVOT Example – revolving door.
Mechanical – That motion of a body moving around a center point.
Golf – A multiple universal-joint assembly between the Stationary Head and the Stationary Feet holding the Clubshaft “On Plane” by positioning and adjusting the Lever Assembly, through the #3 Accumulator, as directed by the Right Forearm.
Here the Stationary Head is linked to the clubshaft being On-Plane and to Accumulator #3 which of course controls Hinge Action which controls the Clubface which controls the golf Ball.

STATIONARY HEAD Example – a spinning skater.
Mechanical – Same as Pivot Center.
Golf – Chosing the Head – rather than Between the Shoulders as the Pivot Center.

So there it is as written by Mr. Kelley. It is my conclusion based on the above that the Stationary Head is Essential in the areas of being On-Plane, Clubface Alignment, Right Elbow Location, Balance, Low Point, the strokes full Radius, Full Lever Extension and a three dimensional Impact sustaining the LOC.

"Though the “Head” Pivot Center is recommended, it is not at all mandatory."

and here we sit.


My personal conclusion:

This site will remain the "Homer recommended" site.

My site will remain the site for "Brian Manzella tested and approved" stroke pattern variations, options, solutions, and explanations.

OK?

Just "some guy from Louisiana," like someone called me on here, doing my best to help people play the best golf they can.

I won't bother anyone here unless I am asked to.

Back to the bayou...

Oh, wait, let me save you some trouble:

Lynn will say: I'll go with Homer.
Ted will say: Lynn knows best.
The others will say: Yeah Manzella, you lose.

I'll even respond: any place, anytime, anywhere

:smile:

The Foundation
 

Birdie,

I've already answered every single one of your questions. Please...

Read my posts.

The only thing remaining to be addressed are your words 'ALWAYS' and 'exceptions.' To this I say, there are ALWAYS exceptional circumstances: Some situational. Some physiological. And some psychological.

Life is short. Play hard.

And take my advice:

1. Set your Head at Address where you want it to be at Impact.

2. Leave it there until at least the end of the Follow-Though.

Learn to do that, and then go to work on the Stroke itself...

3. Use your Right Forearm and #3 Pressure Point to Trace a Straight Plane Line with the Clubhead Lag Pressure and keep your Left Wrist Flat through Impact.

That is what this System is all about. Once you have the fundamentals down pat, everything else is a distraction.

Well...

My two cents.

I dont think anyone would argue that - if you built a machine that needed precision and compression, the less lateral movement, particularly from the base, the better. And so...I believe Mr Kelley was dead on in this respect. This is a precision game - and the less wobbly parts, the better. Common sense.

However. I believe Brian has a point as well, and it shouldnt be dismissed. I do not know of a player whose head does not move - not saying there isnt one, I just havent seen it. And in this regard, I see Brians point. I wouldnt say its optimal to move the head (and havent seen Brian say it either), but many, if not most, players do.

There is the optimal way - which maybe many of us cannot do, and there are other ways, no? (which I wouldnt necessarily call optimal, but maybe more realistic).

Just my take. I'll stand with Homer on optimal...but also understand other points of view...

Patrick

Personally i think this thread is dumb.

Everyone will not play better golf with a perfectly steady head. Some will, some won't.

Why can't we leave it at that?

Jim,
While I understand your frustration - for those steely eye'd folks - gleams of information is in this thread.

;)

A Look Back
 

For sure, this thread has contained some forks in the road. But the very fact that a number of thoughtful posts have encouraged readers to at least think about a Pivot Center -- whether the Head or 'between the shoulders' -- in my opinion takes it out of the 'dumb' category.

And some of the illustrations have broken new ground. For example, when was the last time you saw the way the spine really worked in the Backstroke? Or saw a Ben Hogan swing sequence from Power Golf sized and superimposed for the very first time? All with graphic representation of the Pivot Swing Center.

Finally, students of The Golfing Machine® who have read this thread now know unequivocably where Homer Kelley stood on this most important subject. That in itself can be an invaluable touchstone on the rather insecure road known as Golf.

We need to be patient. We're building skyscrapers here, one brick at a time. Sometimes the process gets a bit messy, but the end result makes it all worthwhile.

My thanks to Brian for starting this thread and to all who have contributed.

Why Science?
 

The only reason such posts can exist is because of a lack of understanding of what science is all about. Science is an EPISTEMOLOGY - which simply stated is a way of knowing about reality around us.

Some other forms of epistemologies are so prevalent among us and sometimes necessary in our life on this earth. Indeed at least one form of it has reared its (ugly) in our study of a concrete and tangible matter as that of the golf swing.

Notwithstanding, other forms of epistemologies are valid, even necessary in this life. However, epistemologies are like tools in our workshed.

One cannot use a hammer to screw a screw (pardon the pun, it was intended!) and then say it was "useless". The matter of fact is that the tool was not useless, but the workman was erroneous in using that tool. The tool must be matched to the job at hand.

If you are analysing intangible material like human emotions, then a different set of tools must be utilised then if you were analysing HUMAN MOTION which this website it dedicated to.

Below is an excerpt of an article that I have written previously.

What is SCIENCE?
Science is NOT a subject, we have taken science to become the generic name for the study of natural phenomena like physics and biology. That could not be further from the truth.

Science is a Method of Enquiry
Technically, science is a method of enquiry or what researchers will call an epistemology. Other methods of enquiry include superstition, intuition, and finally sources of authority.

A superstition is a belief or fear based on faith in chance, magic or irrational feelings (Funk & Wagnalls 1982). Superstitions ignore the laws of nature and are based on personal subjective feelings as opposed to objective verifiable experience.

Intuition is the direct knowledge or awareness of something that we acquire without conscious attention or reasoning. Like superstitions, it is wholly subjectiveand based totally on personal feelings. This is the gut feeling approach to knowing about things. In golf, gut feelings cannot improve the swing.

Finally, we can learn about golf through sources of authority. We can learn from our professionals, who are supposed to be sources of authority in the game. HOWEVER, if they are improperly trained and do not understand the real science behind the golf swing, then they would become an invalid source of information. Authority does not equate to valid information.

Golfing instruction for the most part has been based on subjective and invalid knowledge and has gotten to the point where these myths are not even challenged and assumed to be the gospel. Faulty information is the reason that with all the advances in technology, physical fitness and so called instructional theory 95% of all golfers still cannot break 90?

Main Characteristics
The main characteristics of a scientific method are:

o Provisional information: Science is not concerned with preserving falsehoods. Any time that a theory is falsified or found untrue, it is simply discarded or modified. A scientist does not let emotions get in the way of rationality and enshrine myths simply because “this is the way we have taught for years", or "because I said so."

o Objectivity: Science is concerned with objective information, not what someone thinks or feels. Subjectivity is “the cat is cute”. Objectivity is “the cat is black”. With a scientific method, we are only concerned with what science says about golf, not what a pro is doing. A pro may find a way to make inferior methods work because of their superb hand to eye coordination and hand manipulation.

o Cause and Effect: Science is concerned about discovering the relationships between variables or what causes what. Traditional golf instruction’s great failing is that sometimes causes and effects are not accurately recognized and substituted for one another. When an instructor does not know the root cause of a student’s faulty swing, a cure can never be prescribed.

o Empiricism: Science is only concerned with empirically observable phenomena. If you say that an angled hinge action produces a certain shot, then it must be unfailingly demonstrated in order to be correct. This takes the “feels as if” and “seems as if” elements out of golf instruction.

o Systematic: Science is based on systematic enquiry and not on haphazard approaches to learning about a golf swing. It is concerned with procedures. Step one and then step two and so on. Only when a systematic approach is adopted in instruction, can the student improve. We teach the swing in stages and troubleshoot and correct the first wobbly point in the swing and from the feet up.

In conclusion, it can be readily seen that only a scientific approach to studying of the golf swing can yield valid information or simply, what the golf swing REALLY is.

Just as water boils at 100Deg C without fail each time, obeying the laws of force and motion in your golf swing will ensure improvement, no matter what level of golf you play to.

I hope this puts to rest all this "My Way" and "Your Way" arguments. We should not be concerned with such things, we must focus on what science has discovered.

Until the Yellow Book has been disproved, I will continue to focus my studies and instruction on it. Thank you Mr. Kelly for codifying ALL there is to know in G.O.L.F

ok...i guess it's not dumb.

And some good info has come out of it for some people, i just don't have a ton of use for it.

shrug

no fouls
 

Brian,

I'm sorry if that was offensive, but that statement was EXACTLY how I first learned about Yoda. It was "some guy from Atlanta" that was teaching Homer's work, as written. He has become my mentor, friend, and colleague. If my son chooses to be a golfer and reaches a point where dad can’t tell him anything, Yoda will be his teacher. I trust him implicitly.

I would like to place a small amendment to the statement that will be accredited to me.
Ted will say: Homer knew best, and Lynn is his 1st generation, faithful follower. I will always strive to be a 2nd generation, faithful follower.

And, by the way, Manzella does not lose. As I have said in multiple PM's to those concerned:

“If you take a lesson from anyone that uses TGM, INCLUDING Brian Manzella, you will be getting the best golf lesson you've ever had.”

“I don't know why everything has to be a contest. To be honest, Brian is a very likeable guy in person. He's much more tame than his forum persona. He has great stories and great experiences.”

And as I have told you:

“I have respect for you, your site, and your business. I had a great time in Canton, and I was very happy to finally meet Ben. I thought everyone did a great job. There are a couple of points on which I know Lynn and Ben disagree. So what! There are 10,000 on which they do agree.”

These are my words by which I will stand and are not innuendo. And, these words are certainly not as contentious as those directed toward me as previously found on another site. Seemingly, these words would be of poor choice if there was some vendetta or conspiracy brewing.

If there is an area in which you and I differ other than the minute details of Homer’s work, it is this:

I have no appreciation for receiving a lecture and a great appreciation for receiving a lesson. It’s the tone of superiority that I find in your posts in here and on your site that I find (PERSONALLY) unappealing. I understand that it’s your style, and I don’t fault you for being ‘Brian.’ I find Lynn to be a person to which a crowd is drawn and is willing to share his depth of knowledge. His is a position of servanthood, which I find to be very appealing. These are the flavors of TGM. Some like chocolate, some like vanilla, and some like jalapeño.

Your site has been a great service to those that seek, as is this one. We all learn from each other, compare ideas, and passionately defend our beliefs. This is the beauty of the forums.

Don't kill me ...
 

I'm new around these parts, and perhaps this isn't the best place for my first post, but I don't get the whole discussion, although I think it is great for TGM.

Here's an observation: I can move my head, side to side, up and down, without moving my neck. The pivot point of my head is my neck. So, the pivot point of the swing is not the head, because that can move independently. So it must be the neck. Is this what Brian is saying?

However, where the head goes so does the body, as an old wrestling coach of mine used to say. So that means that you must keep the head steady, which makes it the pivot point. Steady head, steady pivot. Is this what Homer and Lynn are saying?

No, Manzella, you haven't lost. This discussion has been great learning experience for many people thanks to you and Lynn. Why do you have to look at everything as winning/losing, being number one, the best in the world, etc...which does sadden me.

This is high minded stuff. You are a true gentleman.

Head or neck hmmm why should it be one of those only? Why must it be in the center part of the body? Cant it be to the left of the head? I dont know, but I shure would like some more answers to my question abt the pivotaxis and I think it is very relevant to this discusion
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=1721

Weird time to step in...
 

First post too... I saw Vandals. I was drawn to TGM a few months ago, and I have read the book inside and out. I have devoured everything on this site and everything on Brian's site. In 3 months, from this information (and the help of a TGM bachelor/PGA who unfortunately won't be as analytical as I would like)I have started to kill the ball. Sweet. I'm also no schulb when it comes to understanding complicated mechanics. I previously coached highly skilled juniors in another sport (I focused on mechanics), play two of my own at 0 handicap level (not golf), and do something extremely complicated for a living. I don't mean to brag, I'm just a little nervous around you guys. You can be very serious sometimes! :)

I have also waited to post, so that I could understand the etiquette of this site. I appreciate that this is your community, and I have already learned a ton from all of you having not made any contribution of my own.

I find these threads where everyone jumps on Brian to be very distressing. Everyone in here must have had an open mind at some point to have arrived at TGM. Many do not appear to be thinking and challenging their understanding, which is what Brian is asking you to do. Today I hear the phrase "Wealth is the product of man's ability to think" and it made sense to me. You cannot grow grain without knowing how to turn the earth or that seeds will germanate. I have the feeling that Brian's understanding of TGM exceeds that of all but a few in this community. He might be thinking while many of the rest of us are trying to understand.

I agree with Vandal. If you resist with the muscles in the left of your neck, your head will stay centered. My head happens to (I'll see more on video tomorrow - yikes). If you relax those muscles from the same pivot position, the neck is the center. Same pivot, different look. I agree that the head has weight, and I'm not sure how to resolve that just yet. However, I do know that in my other sports I have my own idiosyncratic movements, but they are irrelevant because I have total command of the essential sources of power. I can fill in the extra time with whatever whackiness I please that day. Time is slow.

I am sensative to Brian's point, because I used to have a very nasty reverse pivot which was the result of an attempt to prevent a sway. You all know what I was told that started that ugly action. It took a year to fix it.

Hi folks...typing this from West Palm Beach, about to play Seminole...so I'm in a good mood :D :D

The neck is a valid 'pivot center' it may not be the best geometrically, but it works for many.

Let's bump this whole discussion over to this new thread:

Audio Comments
 

Yoda~

I don't believe there has been a reference to the audios.

In an audio Mr. Kelley comments on why the head while acknowledging the neck may be more geometrically correct. He goes on to indicate it remained for him to confirm the geometrically correct conclusion.

When the Hogan photos were posted a thought was why from that period? Your comments about Power Golf are a reminder that Hogan's instructional influence did not begin with 5 Lessons in 1957.

Do you have an opinion on why a Hogan position with the shaft parallel is typically the one of comparison? For example, there is the one used here and the one on the next page of the book with the shaft beyond parallel, also illustrated in 5 Lessons, which rarely gets attention?

Finally, on swing sequence, a 1985 version with 4-iron was published in the October 1997 issue of Golf Digest. The frame at or close to the top was for some reason not from the same swing as the remaining frames.

DRW

What other thread is Brian talking about?

roll - gybe: Thanks. At least I know someone read my post :eek:

This one http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=2025

Keep perspective
 

not a historian in any way or form........but this is likely similar to what broke the Baptists away from the Lutherens back in 1789 or so.............just an analogy,

keep the forest in view, dont focus in on 1 tree

The Pivot Center -- Geometrical Versus Practical
 

Doc and I have been doing some PMing -- thanks Doc! -- and here is the exact quote from Homer Kelley regarding the use of the 'point between the shoulders' (the 'back of the neck' versus the Head) as the Pivot Center:

"There could be some argument about whether it is the back of the neck or the head. I advocate the head. If you use that as the pivot center...the eyes will tell you when you have moved. If you move your head with the back of the neck center you have nothing then to go by. I don't think it is nearly as dependable.....geometrically you could say it is more correct but I have come to some information that it is not that correct either (pause)...effective either."

What Homer is saying here is that one could argue that the 'between the shoulders' is more geometrically correct because, as he says in 2-H:

"The spine, between the shoulders, is the [true] center of the Shoulder Turn..."

So, what he is saying is that the spine, not the Head, is the Pivot's true geometric center (and not the Head). However, he is also saying that for practical purposes, the golfer is better off using the Head because the 'point between the shoulders' "...is not nearly as dependable."

I sooo agree with that.