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I'm sure this can all get 'hammered' out ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

Good question, John. As usual! :)

You would still have a straight line Angle of Approach, but remember, with 10-5-A, you Trace the true Geometric Plane Line. And when you do this, the Clubhead Covers its curved Visual Equivalent, the Arc of Approach (the Clubhead Blur through Impact and Low Point). It therefore cannot Cover the straight line Visual Equivalent, the Angle of Approach (also through Impact and Low Point).

Hitters using 10-5-E as their Baseline do not Trace the (Geometric) Plane Line of 10-5-A and hence do not Cover its Arc of Approach. Instead, they abandon the Tracing concept altogether and Cover the Angle of Approach, the straight line -- not curved -- Visual Equivalent of the true Geometric Plane Line.

Thanks Yoda,

That certainy clears up some fog. Awesome post!:smile:

Quote:

Originally Posted by annikan skywalker

Some illustrations AND Photographs of golfers executing these motions would really help...Yoda tell us who...we'll get the pics and betwen Leo and myself we can perform the illustrations you provide the insight and take the lead!!!!

Annikan:cool:

How about the picture in Eldrick's book with the overhead shot? You could draw all kinds of colored lines on that bad boy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

Yes.

Yes.

But as I said (and continue to say :) ) ...

The Hitter's Angle of Approach procedure does not utilize the true Geometric Plane Line.

Yes! That means the Hitter doesn't give a fish's tit about the true Geometric Plane Line, i.e. he does not attempt to Trace it it any way. All he cares about is covering the Angle of Approach with the Clubhead. In that sense, "the Hitter's Angle of Approach procedure does not utilize the true Geometric Plane Line." However, it still doesn't change the fact that the Plane Line has to be Traced (1-L-6), regardless of the procedure you are using. And we've confirmed on our last post that this is the Geometric Plane Line from which the Angle of Approach is derived from.

:-k

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkerby

Hi Mike O. You have a handle on Paddlewheel. The visual rotation of the Paddle Wheel gives me problems. Does the wheel
go clockwise or counterclockwise. Seems to me that swinging
with horizontal hinging would use a clockwise rotation with the
left hand rotating clockwise through impact, but with hitting
and angular hinging, the wheel would have to be rotating counter
clockwise to produce the layback. Please help me to get the
visual concept. Thanks, Donn

Donn,
Paddlewheel just means something moving in a certain plane- around an axis. Horizontal hinging is just like the motion of a door- think of a revolving door.

Consider the right forearm on plane moving to impact- and it's also rotating around a center (circle) so you could call that - right forearm paddlewheel motion.

So you could use the term Paddlewheel motion- for alot of things in the golf swing- any period of motion, regarding anything- that A) is moving in the same-consistent plane of motion and B) that is moving through angular motion - would fit the term. For example, the paddlewheel motion of the on-plane clubshaft, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike O

Consider the right forearm on plane moving to impact- and it's also rotating around a center (circle) so you could call that - right forearm paddlewheel motion.

The center being the right elbow? The left shoulder?

Thanks for the reply Mike O. Sure value your information.
I have just been confused because the back wheel of a riverboat
seems to rotate counter clock wise, where as the Paddle wheel of Homer Kelley seem to rotate clockwise.
Thanks again, Donn

Quote:

Originally Posted by tongzilla

The center being the right elbow? The left shoulder?

Updating my post here...Clubface Paddlewheel Action is performed as a hinge motion around an axis vertical to one of the three basic planes. So the left shoulder would be your center.
See 2-G.

The right forearm paddle wheel motion is responsible for guiding the entire left arm flying wedge into and through impact.

Bagger

Thanks to all participating in this thread. It's lifted a river(boat) of fog for me.

Special thanks to Mike O who made me feel a little less stupid regarding my frustration and confusion with the different use of "paddlewheel motion" throughout the book, and for a very interesting perspective on the construction of the book. The more I come to understand it, the more I respect the genius of Homer Kelly.

CG

Counter Clockwise

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkerby

Donn,
Per my prior post- It's really the principle of the paddlewheel- not any particular specifics that you want to focus on. Regarding your comment "the back wheel of a riverboat seems to rotate counter clock wise"- that would of course depend on what side of it that your on. If the wheel was pushing the boat forward then from one side the wheel would be rotating clockwise but if you went around to the other side of the boat it would be rotating counter clockwise.

Then from any particular side- whether it was moving clockwise or not, would depend on whether the boat was moving in forward gear or reverse gear.

Paddlewheel motion is a rotating motion of an entity (could be any entity) in a particular plane (could be any plane), for a particular period of time (could be any period of time).

Regarding Tong's question- "right forearm paddlewheel motion- what center Right Elbow or Left Shoulder?" The same applies- in regards to this discussion- it's not important what the center is- just so that there is a rotating motion- the center could be moving or changing but as long as the forearm was making an on-plane motion and rotating i.e. not moving in a straight line- then it would have paddlewheel motion. My term circle - implying a center - would probably have better stated as just - angular motion of the right forearm.

In summary, I still think that Mr. Kelley was really unclear(:eek:- what a surprise!) on this issue when you look at the different ways that he used it, throughout the book. I've touched on the principle of this concept- I guess if people need to chew on it more - then using or understanding specific examples in the book or asking questions regarding specific examples in the book would be the best way to identify and verify the principle.

Here's All the References in the 6th Edition to Paddlewheel. Do the dots connect?

2-G HINGE MOTION . . . These motions actually duplicate the three possible hinge mountings – horizontal, vertical and angled – representing all three Basic Planes (7-5). The Hands can be educated to reproduce them by holding at least one Hand vertical or parallel to the corresponding Basic Plane. These motions also duplicate the motions of paddles of a paddlewheel rotating around its axis vertical to one of the three Basic Planes. And an equivalent could be “Clubface Paddlewheel Action” executed as a Left Wrist Paddlewheel Motion. Thus, though some procedures may cause the Clubface to “Close” in relation to the Plane Line, none will be an actual “Roll” of the Hands. See 2-C and 6-B-3-0. There is, however, the “Release Roll” (Swivel) which is a true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignments by Accumulator #3 with (10-18-A only). After the selected Hinge Action has been executed, the Swivel is again useful for Snap Rolling the hands into their On Plane Condition for the Finish (8-12). That is the Geometry of Hinging.

6-B-1-0 THE FIRST POWER ACCUMULATOR is the Bent Right Arm – the Hitter’s (7-19) Muscle Power Accumulator. Even though the Right Bicep is active per 7-3, the Backstroke (8-5) is always made with the Right Arm striving to remain straight. But the straight Left Arm restrains this continuous Extensor Action of the right triceps with and effortless Checkreign Action. Consequently, during Release (7-24) the Right Arm can straighten only as the Left Arm moves away froM the Right Shoulder. This results in a smooth, even Thrust for acceleration of the Lever Assemblies (6-A) from an otherwise unruly force. Active or Passive, the straightening Right Elbow with its Paddlewheel Action, powers, guides, and regulates the #3 Accumulator Motion (7-18) but not the actual Clubface aligning (1-F). Study 2-M, 7-11 and Components 19.

7-18 LEFT WRIST ACTION . . . Then understanding and executing the Left Wrist Action per 2-N-1, synchronizes the entire procedure. Trigger Delay alters little geometrical but magnifies the physics. The Paddlewheel Action of the straightening Right Elbow (10-10-C) initiates and sustains the #3 Accumulator Hand Motion (4-D-0) unit the Both-Arms-Straight and Zero Accumulator #3 position of Full Extension – but, of course, under the guidance of the Flat, Vertical Left Wrist Hinge Action (2-G). Accumulator #3 Action is not Lever Assembly Extension. See 2-P. With the Endless Belt Effect, The Belt (Hands) and the Clubhead have the RPM but the Surface factor sets in and gives the Clubhead greater MPH – in reverse proportion to the size of the Pulley (the smaller, the faster). That is, raised Hand Position – reducing the Accumulator #3 Travel –plus Trigger Delay. Conversely – a larger Pulley (lowered Hands) requires a higher Handspeed and an earlier Trigger. See 6-B-3-A, 6-F and 6-N-0.

10-2-D STRONG DOUBLE ACTION T/V/A Now the Right Wrist is Vertical and the Left Wrist is Turned to the top of the Clubshaft so that the Left Wristcocking motion will be on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend. The #3 Pressure Point and the left thumb are also on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend. Double Action – same as 10-2-C.

Very compatible with the Cut Shot procedures. Any Left Wrist Bend at Impact Fix should be maintained throughout the Stroke.

This Grip Type features maximum Wristcocking action and strong support for both Acceleration and Impact loads. The palm of the Right Hand moves toward Impact exactly like a paddle-wheel rotating On-Plane – no separate Rolling Motion until after Impact. See 10-10-C.

10-10-C ANGLED HINGE ACTION This simultaneous “Closing and Layback” procedure holds the Flat Left Wrist vertical to the Inclined Plane (2-D, 2-G). This is identical to the Paddle-Wheel motion of the straightening Right Arm but is a superior procedure (1-F). It greatly simplifies Hitting (10-19-A). The Shoulder Turn changes the appearance of this 10-18-C Wrist Action but not its Feel (see 7-10). Its Slice tendency must be compensated per 2-J-1. The “Laying Back” action makes Ball location very critical. Study 4-D-0.

10-19-0 GENERAL . . . Hinge Action does NOT differentiate Hitting and Swinging. All are interchangeable – with reservations. Hitters using Horizontal Hinging must consciously resist the tendency of the Right Arm Paddlewheel Action toward Angled Hinging. Swingers using Angled Hinging must consciously resist the tendency of Centrifugal Force toward Horizontal Hinging. Both procedures require skill in Clubface manipulation per 7-2.

10-24-E AUTOMATIC SNAP RELEASE This procedure drives the Lag Pressure Point through a Snap Release (6-N-0) as if there were to be no Release at all. The Paddlewheel Action of Angled Hinging per (10-10-C) or the Throw Out Action of Accumulator #3 (6-B-3-0), if unhampered, will whip the Hands and the Clubface into impact alignment per 7-23. A strong whiplash type of motion is also effective. With Single Wrist Action (10-18-C) a Snap Release will return the Hands to their Vertical condition before Triggering and ensure a Downward rather than a Forward course of the Clubhead into Full Extension. Study 2-P, 6-B-2-0 and 10-11-3-0.

In a real paddlewheel, the paddles are always perpendicular (or vertical) to the plane of motion of the whole paddlewheel. And in The Golfing Machine, the paddles are analogous to the Clubface.

The End of the Line

Quote:

Originally Posted by tongzilla

In a real paddlewheel, the paddles are always perpendicular (or vertical) to the plane of motion of the whole paddlewheel. And in The Golfing Machine, the paddles are analogous to the Clubface.

...and, ultimately, the Flat Left Wrist held Vertical to the selected Axis of Rotation -- Horizontal, Vertical or Angled -- as dictated by the selected Hinge Action.

How do the Center and Paddlewheel concepts work with the idea that the Thrust of Hitter is a Radial action?

If, at the Top, the Hitters hands move Direct (Radially) to the ball, does this imply that the Hands at the Top are at a Center of something?

If so, this is the Center of what?

If not, how do we define Radial motion as it pertains to the Hitter?

If one is using Angled Hinging as per 10-10-C would the clubface look slightly shut at the Top compared to laying it on the Plane at the Top as with Paddle-Wheel technique?:???:

I spent all morning reading this thread to get a better understanding of paddlewheel motion. Does anyone have a video showing it?

I think I understand what it is but I don't see people doing it or don't know what to look for.

I also thought the radial question in post 54 was a good one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Graham (Post 77634)

No specific 'paddlewheel' video, although it is implicit here:

http://lynnblakegolf.com/index.php/V...on-part-1.html

http://lynnblakegolf.com/index.php/V...on-part-2.html

On my lesson tee, it would take me less than sixty seconds to give you the information you seek and would lean on -- as a player and as a teacher -- for the rest of your life.

We may soon offer exactly that -- and much more -- in a suite of video products starring Lynn Blake Certified Senior and Master Instructors.

Stay tuned!

:3gears:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 77639)

We may soon offer exactly that -- and much more -- in a suite of video products starring Lynn Blake Certified Senior and Master Instructors.

Stay tuned!

:3gears:

That sounds VERY exciting! :salut:

Kevin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 20435)

Paddlewheel references:

Index: Page 240 “Paddlewheel 10-10-C”

Glossary:
Flat and Vertical Left Wrist- example left hand karate chop
Mechanical- The Paddlewheel blade relationship as vertical to its axis of rotation (crosswise) and vertical to its plane of motion (lengthwise).
Golf- Positioning the Left Wrist to be vertical to its Left shoulder Axis and to its Associated Plane during Impact.

10-24-E Automatic Snap Release……….The Paddlewheel Action of Angled Hinging (10-10-C) or the Throw Out Action of Accumulator #3 (6-B-3-0), if unhampered, will whip the Hands and the Clubface into impact alignment per 7-23.

10-19-0 Last paragraph
Hinge action does NOT differentiate Hitting and Swinging. All are interchangeable- with reservations. Hitters using Horizontal Hinging must consciously resist the tendency of Right Arm Paddlewheel Action toward Angled Hinging. Swingers using Angled Hinging must consciously resist the tendency of Centrifugal Force toward Horizontal Hinging.

10-10-C Angled Hinge Action……This simultaneous “Closing and Layback” procedure holds the Flat Left Wrist vertical to the Inclined Plane (2-D, 2-G). This is identical to the Paddlewheel motion of the straightening right arm but is a superior procedure (1-F). It greatly simplifies Hitting (10-19-A).

10-2-D
The palm of the Right Hand moves toward Impact exactly like a paddle-wheel rotating On Plane- no separate Rolling Motion until after Impact. See 10-10-C.

7-20- 7th edition
Paragraph 2- 1st to last sentence- starting at remember- “Remember, only right elbow feel- neither triceps- or lag pressure- can safely monitor the paddlewheel motion of the straightening right arm for proper clubface closing motion.”

7-18
The Paddlewheel action of the straightening Right Elbow (10-10-C) initiates and sustains the #3 Accumulator Hand Motion (4-D-0) until the Both Arms Straight and zero #3 Accumulator position of Full Extension.

6-B-1-0
Active or Passive, the straightening Right Elbow with its Paddlewheel Action, powers, guides and regulates the #3 Accumulator Motion (seven-eighteen) but not the actual Clubface aligning (1-F).

2-G 2nd paragraph
These motions also duplicate the motions of the paddles of a paddlewheel rotating around an axis vertical to one of the three Basic Planes. And an equivalent term could be “Clubface Paddlewheel Action” executed as a Left Wrist Paddlewheel Motion.

This gives us some information to work with but before we dig deeper- just a comment/guess on the man and the issues of writing the book.

The amount of effort, intelligence and focus required to produce a piece of work such as the Golfing Machine is enormous- and that focus for accomplishment doesn’t leave room for other items/focuses/skills, that’s really a comment on his intellectual brilliance and the cause of the “blank spots”.

Second, no one would or could help him much- so many areas that should have been accomplished were not, just due to a lack of time due to the obsession and amount of time the researching took.

Finally, there may have been feedback that would have been good but Homer had some particular issue that made him decide not to make an apparent “good” change, i.e. money, etc. According to himself, he was really and primarily a Researcher- not a Teacher, not a Writer, not a Publisher- so he was a great Researcher but not a very good writer- (my opinion). All of the above created this “problem” of the Golfing Machine- on the one hand it’s so precise, detailed, all the puzzle pieces fit (isn’t that great!)- on the other hand- he doesn’t define all his terms, he doesn’t identify his resources as is a common scientific protocol, and in referring to any particular item such as “Paddlewheel”, he changes the context depending on the discussion without clearly identifying the different context- “He expects you to understand the principle i.e. of Paddlewheel and then apply that principle in any particular context i.e. left wrist, right forearm, etc. Whether the expectation for you to apply that principle was conscious (he thought you could do it) or subconscious (he understood the context himself-“well of course” and he didn’t even think about whether others would understand the change in context- from one section to the other), I have no idea.

So I better stop rambling and just complain at this point- Starting at the index on page 240 – for Paddlewheel he has one reference! 10-10-C

Maybe it’s just my obsessive personality but I would have wanted to be thorough (hey I may have missed some- add’em on if I did) and listed the following with their corresponding paragraphs and line numbers (which I didn’t list here)
2-G 2nd paragraph, lines …….
6-B-1-0
7-18
7-20
10-2-D
10-10-C
10-19-0 last paragraph
10-24-E
Glossary- Flat Left Wrist

Will all of those references be in the 7th edition- no. Would or could they help the reader- I think yes.

2nd, I would have defined the term under PaddleWheel in the Glossary and then identified the different contexts that it is used in the book i.e. 1) 2-G left wrist, 2) 10-10-C 1st sentence left wrist, 2nd sentence on-plane right forearm, etc, etc

The whole point comes down to clarity- and the problem why this information has not and will not get out as quickly as it could have. In this Paddlewheel example (see above sections from the book)- he intermingles Right Elbow, Right Arm, etc etc creating confusion for the reader. Could it all be written alot clearer- absolutely! Could it be so much more powerful- ABSOLUTELY!
Feel free to jump in and comment- when I get time I plan to post again in regards to clarifying paddlewheel – even though with all of these posts that everyone has already posted, and this information, it may be obvious by now. And then directly respond to 10-10-C in regards to what it is saying. Plus responding to any other posts.

Man, Mike O. Awesome, wonder if he digitized the book and did a search ?

Thanks for heading me to those vids.

I've watched them a bunch of times before.

Is there a piece of the machine shown that is doing the paddlewheel motion or are you doing it during the demonstrations?

I'd love to see the vid when it comes out.

JG