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#2 looks like Ted Tryba to me. I think #8 IS Tway.

I think some learning could occur with this discussion... if it is done carefully.

Maybe some further discussion(pictures) of the #3 Pressure Point and Sweet Spot being on Plane would help start things off.

The first two guys are obviously much different than Mac. Tiger looks similar, but his Sweet Spot looks different than Mac's. The CLUBFACE on V.J. is a little hard to see here.

AS,
Great analysis. I agree.
It appears most of the guys will have to stand up or make another compensation to get the right forearm and club on plane.

Kutchar,Tryba, O'Grady, Woods, Couples

Cadet Fisher(West Point), VJ, Tway, Sindelar, Watson...


Lagster, I concur with your post....


6B Mike I'll consider trading ya...Munson,Dent, Randolph,Chambliss, Rivers, Nettles, Jackson, Guidry,Gossage,and the Catfish... Hunter that is....If you and Philly make the trip and More Caddyshack quotes

Tryba and Tway- Tway and Tryba. They always mixed me up. LOL.

Mickey Rivers, damn...Philly and I will start painting the "Magic Forearm Bus" and hit the road with U2 and Elvis Costello CDs playing loud. I'll play Cheech and Philly will be Chong. :p :D

Still need to call Pat- where is the guy?

ok. I think I am starting to see what you are saying. I was confused on the right forearm and see where you are saying it points over the line by tway.

I think if we could see lines drawn it would be easier, but I think I am grasping what you are saying. Mac's is a little unclear, but I see his right forearm.

OK here's why I VJ is XXX-Rated in my opinion: The red arrow is for frames #5 and #7 ONLY to indicate clubhead location ...Not anything else..so don't read too far into it...Now the delivery path of the hands is on-plane but the clubhead/sweetspot is below plane in fram#5....the Hands are on the plane in frame #7 the below and left of the hand path on frame #7.....there for so the plane line be kept straight both the #3 Pressure point and the sweetspot plane need to be tracing the same line..not 2 different lines...Thus a Bent plane line...is XXX-Rated!!!

BTW ...Notice the Hinge Action of the clubface....Frames #2,#5,&#7


See some differences or incompatiblity???? I Do!!!

O!

THERE'S the clubface!

I didn't see it there man.

Gotcha.

But he does hit a fade right? Is it a push-fade?

as- thanks for the red arrows, now i see what you mean, could not pick up the location of vj's clubhead w/out the arrows ... thanks again

Thanks for clearing this! I must have spent 10 minutes looking fot the clubhead!

Me too actually!

thanks...so the club should be on the plane line on frame 7 too?

So if you were trying to get VJ on the right path, where would you start?

Where would I start...Change his perception of Plane...In the Off season work on Stage1's and Stage 2's to get the Right Forearm, #3PP, and the Sweetspot Tracing the Plane Line...Then we would work on Rhythm/Hinge Action instead of executing Impact to Follow-Through as a "swivel"...Finally work with him on the right elbow/right hip coordination...by way of correcting when the "Tailbone" when and how it begins to extend...His Tailbone extension is slightly early causing the right elbow/right hip collision and the slight rounghousing of the forearm off the plane and shiftin to another ..checkout Frames#5 vs,Frame #7.....
Then his hands will have to be re-educated to the new alignments/relationships...

Oh yeah I think his Left Arm tends too swing downward and Forward a little INDEPENDENTLY....Man is this hard to adjust....

Typical Tour Player response...

Now...Keep it Simple....

cause I gotta get on a plane and go play in a tournament next week...

and guess what after a few swings on the range and asking their peers and their peers coaches to take a look...

Your advice just drifts away into the sunset...while this typical tour player/junkie searches for his next fix!!! Or PIMP!!!


how do I know...been there ....done that...

Annikan,

You posts are always very interesting! Would you mind explaining what you mean by tailbone extension?

Chris

When one is bending forward this is called Flexion...when one begins to move from being bent forward to standing up it is called Extension...thus if you compare photos#5 of both Mac and VJ you would see a remarkable difference in the Sacrum/Tailbone.


Here's VJ
[/quote]

Here's Mac

Annikan...i want to play devil's advocate here.

What do you think would be more time consuming? Perfecting his "off swing" to stay #2 in the world, or changing the problems with his swing?

Now Dave...you know I am there!!!!!!! You and Eddie are my boys!


Watching the detectives, thats where!!!!
We're there!!!!!!!!!!!!

A litte...but due to body motion more then anything.


Great point Jim!!!!

Dave...rather then pick apart why Vijay isnt perfect. Why dont we take a look at why it works?

Possibly the best ballstriker on tour, minus some of the shorter hitters.


What about frame 6? A little steep in the forearm?

I am trying to follow...but dont see him that offplane....helP!

Jim...

Outstanding Post....Leave the swing alone..stay #2 in the world...beat more balls...

Why does it work...He's got a lot of talent..and knows how to be fairly repetitive and like all tour players has a COMPLETE Package...Putting,chipping , Pitching, Bunker Play, Irons, Driving,Power, finesse, guts,determination, fire,confidence,belief,will,heart,focus,patience,c oordination,flexibility,strength,endurance,spEED, MONEY, SUPPORT, FAMILY,ECONMIC STABLILITY,Ability to stay in the present

Philly see you soon...

I wasn't meaning to pick it apart after all the thread is VJ infamous wrong move...just supplying some support evidence as to why Frame #7 happens...


Great to know you're stil out there lurking

I could sak a 1,000 questions because this is real interesting, but let's start with the firt part of the swing after set-up.

So in those pics VJ isn't tracing the plane on the take-away? I can't tell with my eye, so what do you see that tells you this?
Isn't he on the elbow plane halfway back and shoulder plane up top?

Wanole...

VJ's Takeaway is on-plane during the takeaway..see how the sweetspot is tracing up the plane angle as well as his hand path...BUT ....it is Single Wrist Action using Angled Hinging going back...Is the club on-plane in the follow-through and is it Angled Hinging in the Follow-Through? NO!!!


[/quote]

Notice the Plane of the right forearm at frame #5...Notice how it has shifted to another plane in frame #7...this is what a cross-line shift looks like...

[/quote]


Now look at Mac frame#5,#6,#7...see the right forearm is still tracing/paddlewheeling on the same plane!!!

gotcha...sorry to ask so many questions, but this is clearing up tons of fog.

So is VJ doing something worng on the downswing to put him in that position? Also, I seem to get "stuck" like that. How do you go about getting someone from a good position at top to getting to like Mac in frame 5?

Thanks for your time.

Proper Sequencing and Spacing with the 3 Zones

- Body, Arms, Hands....

[quote=annikan skywalker]

"Why does it work...He's got a lot of talent..and knows how to be fairly repetitive and like all tour players has a COMPLETE Package...Putting,chipping , Pitching, Bunker Play, Irons, Driving,Power, finesse, guts,determination, fire,confidence,belief,will,heart,focus,patience,c oordination,flexibility,strength,endurance,spEED, MONEY, SUPPORT, FAMILY,ECONMIC STABLILITY,Ability to stay in the present "

I hope that list is still growing I'll be back up to add to it in December.

Sorting through the Ciruit Player's Handbook!

B-Ray

Notice the Plane of the right forearm at frame #5...Notice how it has shifted to another plane in frame #7...this is what a cross-line shift looks like...

[/quote]


Now look at Mac frame#5,#6,#7...see the right forearm is still tracing/paddlewheeling on the same plane!!![/quote]

this is a question for yoda can you use angled or any hinging for that matter on the backswing. i thought hinging action was determined from inpact to follow through

Thanks, but i am serious...in your opinion what do you think would be more worthwhile in the "medium term" lol?

You think it would be advantageous for him to change his wrong move? You think he could go through a change like Tiger and get it "changed" within a year?

OR

Just keep the same motion and keep beating balls. I'm just curious of your opinion because you've worked with many talented high level pros.

Seriously..don't change it ...just hit a lot of balls...and when your timing is on and the planets are aligned ..YOU WIN!!!

NOt to many people can change their mess and still compete with it...It takes a rare breed to know when to turn on...and turn off the practice approach vs. the playing approach...read Ch.3 thoroughly...

Annakin....can you post some of Mac's more important (or less obvious) Components?

I'm not sure what you're asking ...please be more specific....

I didn't want anything specific....just anything you though was important or defined his swing or was different than 12-2 or w/e.

Nm tho man....I'll look at another sequence and see if I can figure it out.

I think some of the Component differences from 12:2 are:

Grip Type - Strong Underhand
Plane Angle Variation - Double Shift for Draws..Single Shift for Cuts
Hinge Action - Tends to use Angled Hinging
Shoulder Turn - Rotated
Hip Action- Delayed
Hip Turn - Backstroke Shiftless, Downstroke - Slide
Knee Action - Standard
Foot Action - Flat

There are others ...but this comes to the front of my mind


Interesting is : Pivot Components
Flat Left + Standard Knee + Shiftless + Delayed + Rotated = Mega Hip Slant with a lot of Vertical motions combined with Horizontal motions give you some serious forces not just going around the axis ...BUT up and down plus in and out of the GROUND

Mac ...also felt there were points of pressure in both feet and in the right arm pit...unfortunatley to qualify as a TGM pressure point there needs to be a Power Accumulator associated with a corresponding Pressure Point????????????????????????????????

Unfortunatley these pics are from digital video footage...the ball is starting left......So I agree with you about the accuracy of 3D and Parallax....it won't work here...I've got the footage of this swing and several others....He is NOT hitting Draws here....Trust Me!

Great Points about Pictures...Perspective is always different in 3Dimensional Space...You and I standing side by side looking at the same thing always see it a little differently ..RIGHT..You never know what the players intentions are!!! We don't know what he's trying to do....Maybe he's trying to do what he's actually doing...

Oh well !!!
 

You're right...so you're basically saying...I really DO have no idea...Oh Well!!!

Left Wrist Action And Its Hinge Action Substitute
 

The Left Wrist Action (Component #18 ) is Clubhead Control and is in operation from Start Up to Impact. It has two Planes of Motion: Rotational (Turning and Rolling) and Perpendicular (Cocking and Uncocking). The Standard Action (10-18-A) is a Swivel Action -- Hand Motion independent of Arm Motion. A Left Wrist that is Turned and Cocked on the Backstroke must subsequently be Uncocked and Rolled on the Downstroke.

Hinge Action (Component #10) is Clubface Control and is in operation from Impact to the end of the Follow-Through (the Both Arms Straight position). Hinge Action has only one Plane of Motion: the Vertical 'center position' of Rotational Motion. This Vertical Condition of the Rotational Motion is executed by the Flat Left Wrist remaining Vertical (perpendicular) to one of the three Basic Planes (Horizontal, Angled or Vertical).

At any time, the player may substitute Hinge Action for Left Wrist Action during the entire Stroke (7-10). Here, instead of true Hand Rotation -- independent Turning and Rolling -- the Left Wrist remains Vertical to one of the three Planes. Though the Left Wrist may appear to Turn on the Backstroke and Roll on the Downstroke (especially with Horizontal and Vertical Hinging), it is simply remaining vertical to the selected Plane of the Clubface Motion through Impact. Hence, there is no true Rotation of the Wrist. Nevertheless, from Top to Finish, the Stroke may take on the Feel of one long, slow 'Swivel' (2-G).

However...

When utilizing the Hinge Action alternative during the entire Stroke, the player should be aware that at some point, the Shoulder and Arm Motions gradually bring the selected Hinge Action Variation into an On Plane condition at the Top. This 'palms parallel to the Plane' alignment is identical to the Standard Wrist Action with its independent Turn and Roll.

Thus, other than the true Single Wrist Action of 10-18-C-#3 (wherein the Left Wrist does remain truly Vertical throughout the Stroke), the Wrist in the Backstroke gradually Turns (but is not Turned!) and in the Downstroke gradually Rolls (but is not Rolled!). Any forced attempt to maintain the Left Wrist Vertical is unnatural and will produce both an Off Plane Clubshaft and a most un-Golf-like Stroke, conditions intolerable to the the thinking player.

Great post Yoda.

This should clear up a lot of things for a lot of people....when I was starting out I always found the takeaway to be the hardest thing to understand and get right....

....I also thought it was the part of the swing that was explained the WORST by most golf instruction.

Gotta love dems ALIGNMENTS....and the language of TGM...

...makes things so complicated eh? ;)

You're kidding right???? Vijay sets up 25 degrees at east for a fade....let alone a draw...

-Patrick

Lynn....

Do you think you could dissect Vijay's stroke for us?

Thanks,
Patrick

annikan- in the strong underhand grip both wrists are turned, in the hands only position mac assumes above is his left wrist also bent and cocked at address? thanks.

Well...not sure.

But let me ask this. Do you think he's trying to top it????? My point is this...I dont know what the hell he is doing...but he sure as hell isnt hitting sweeping hooks, guarantee that...especially from a cemera angle a little off to the side....who knows????

Not me.

Hooks, I guarantee he is not practicing.

Thats a bit sarcastic. Do you disagree? You really think Vijay, who does everything to negate a hook, is on the range hitting sweeping hooks????

And its Patrick. Clark.

Any other ideas as to what he may be doing????
And Brian had the best explanation I ever hear on Vijays right hand....see my posts above...
9 Patterns? I am not a MAC guy, but I do have hours of tape of him going through Morad....never heard of 9 patterns (now...122, yes! ...just kidding)
Hmmm....good question.

Is he hitting pulls or fades???

Gee....the world according to Philly....

:)

Strikes It Well
 

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We all know that VJ strikes the ball well, plays well, scores well, and makes a lot of money. So did Miller Barber, Bruce Lietzke, and various others. We are just looking at and studying pictures of golf swings to learn more about G.O.L.F., and how these swings work. There are many VARIATIONS... we can learn from them. Keep the pictures coming!!!