A nice summary - the endless belt and where the belt points (aiming point), the size of the pully too, are the key variables IMO.

To Lagster's question I'll add - where are the two 'centers' of the pullys? How does that relate to your center of balance? Does that change if you change where the belt points? (aiming point)

The changes to 2-K are an interesting way to shift the original perspectives on the left shoulder center IMO.

Edz, can you go into more detail on this (why less in the palm helps, etc..)? Maybe you've posted about this in an older thread and could simply provide the link?

Are you referring to:

The key I feel to my stroke, inorder not to have throwaway is to aggressively use my extensor action...constantly pushing downwards hard with my right arm towards the plane line through 'pp3' (instead of pp1) to maintain a flat left wrist. It is also this factor I believe that causes my gradual release. I very much concentrate on the active pressure of the extensor action through pp3 'downwards' towards the plane line. Like your holding a knife in the right hand keep stabbing the pressure downwards with pp3. The right forearm is very active with its extensor action....

I posted this in an earlier thread and it may have more relevance here. . . .

http://theserver.theschool.columbia....s_pulleys.html

Check this out for more on Pulley stuff.

5. Decreasing Pulley Speed

Main Idea: If you use a small pulley wheel to drive a large pulley wheel, the large one will turn slower.

Additional Information: With this model, we have a pulley with a small driver wheel and a large follower wheel. It's really hard to make a wheel like the big one turn - it would take a lot of force. But with a smaller wheel, we can use a process called gearing down to help. Gearing down decreases speed but increases force. Since it's easy to turn a small wheel at a fast speed, we use it to move the large one. A small driver wheel makes a large follower wheel turn more slowly. Since this is a pulley model, both wheels turn in the same direction.

8. Gearing Up

Main Idea: If you use a large gear to drive a small gear, the small one will turn faster.

Additional Information: Here we see a large driver gear and a small follower. We can move the small gear pretty fast on our own, but we can use a process called gearing up to move it even faster. Gearing up increases speed, but decreases force. A good example of a gearing-up system in real life is a 10-speed bike - when you shift into 10th gear, you turn a large gear with the pedals, which drives a small gear attached to the rear wheel. For this model, one turn of the 24-tooth driver produce three turns of the 8-tooth follower. This ratio of 1:3 is called the gearing up ratio

10. Increasing Pulley Speed

Main Idea: If you use a large pulley wheel to drive a small pulley wheel, the small one will turn faster.

Additional Information: In this pulley model we have a large driver wheel and a small follower. We can move the small wheel pretty fast on our own, but these pulleys use a process called gearing up to move it even faster. Gearing up increases speed, but decreases force. A large driver wheel makes a small follower wheel turn faster. However, unlike gears, in this pulley model both wheels turn in the same direction.

This was built with Lego's. I reckon you could raid junior's box and build you some different pulleys to see what happens. Also . . . if the belt is crossed up. The wheels move in opposite directions.

A breakthrough is near.....What affects the Pully Diameter....Left Wrist Cock and Right Elbow location????

Is it not also due to the natural length of the players left arm ?

If you lose the extensor action and allow the left arm to bend more, is it possible to have even smaller pulley ?

How about axis tilt and the right shoulder moving down plane?

A bit of anatomy and a touch of geometry involved, but in a nutshell the palm left hand grip does not allow for a large enough angle between the left arm and club (assuming a flat left wrist). Getting the grip under the heel pad allows the same cock/uncock travel in the left wrist to create a much larger angle with the left arm, while still being basically flat. Of course one can always go double cocked (Hogan), but this requires either perfect CF Rhythm, or a non auto release.

Small pulley v. Large pulley
 

Joe Dante wrote "The correct swing, retaining the wrist break is like a small wheel. It's easy to get started and the energy put into it produces a fast
rotation. The poor swing, hitting too soon and opening the arm-shaft angle, is like a big wheel, hard to get started and never reaching much rotational speed."

He is, of course, talking about Conservation of Angular Momentum (COAM) the effect we see when an ice skater spins faster by pulling her arms in towards her, and slows when she extends her arms.

In TGM terms:
7-18 LEFT WRIST ACTION
...
With the Endless Belt Effect, The Belt (Hands) and the Clubhead have the same RPM but the Surface factor sets in and gives the Clubhead greater MPH - in reverse proportion to the size of the Pulley (the smaller, the faster). That is, raised Hand Position - reducing Accumulator #3 Travel - plus Trigger Delay. Conversely - a larger Pulley (lowered Hands) requires a higher Handspeed and an early Trigger. See (6-B-3-A), (6-F-0) and (6-N-0).

The backswing is about coiling the the upper body against the hips. When tightly coiled, the hands are higher ("raised Hand Position" -- small pulley), but an early hit from the Top or End causes the hands to drop ("lowered Hands -- large pulley").

"The Four Magic Moves To Winning Golf" by Joe Dante was my bible prior to studying TGM. It was first published in 1962 (like Homer, a man before his time?) and is now available as ISBN 0-385-47776-7.

The above quote was from page 116.

Raised Hands/Lowered Hands...Splain!!! Thru Impack?

NO! I presume Homer was telling us that IF the Hands have been lowered early, it in itself indicates a large pulley i.e. an early hit.

Try to uncoil compactly (hands higher i.e. within the coil) for a smaller pulley effect.

I'm lost...where in the book does Homer ever say coil? and what does it have to do with raised or lowered hands?....When #3 Accumulator Angle decreased is raises your hands through Impack and sharp #3 is lowered hands through Impack...maybe... I truly am LOST!!!!:sad2:

I'm open to correction but the usage of 'small pulley' by Homer was one phrase I immediately understood based on my knowledge of Dante.

Yoda???

I'm gonna become a ...

:crybaby:


If I don't hear from you on this one!!!

Raised/ Lowered
 

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I hope Mr. yoda chimes in on the 7-18 section dealing with RAISED and LOWERED HANDS. Some of this information is in 6-N-O, but no mention of raised and lowered hands.

Do the Maximum Trigger delay guys, like Sergio, have raised hands?

There are another indirect references to small and large pulleys (in my opinion) in 2-K and 6-C-2-B (my comments in bold)

2-K
...
Rotation induces a Throw-Out action, pulling the centers of gravity of every moveable component, In-Line and On-Plane with its axis or center, whether or not they were originally In-Line or On-Plane. With a short radius [small pulley] it can accelerate easily, and quickly acquire considerable Angular Velocity. If a portion of this mass moves to a longer radius [larger pulley], the slowing effect (6-C-2-B) must be computed on the basis of the total mass AS LONG AS THE PORTION IS BEING PROPELLED BY THE TOTAL. That is - the slowdown would be in the same ratio that the portion has to the whole - the original central mass.

6-C-2-B ANGULAR ACCELERATION The Clubhead "Overtaking" speed is governed by the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum whereby the increased Mass resulting from any extension of the Swing Radius [larger pulley] decelerates the Hands and unless they are supported by Power Package Thrust (6-B-1) or Throw Out Action (2-K), can result in great loss of Clubhead Speed.

I originally gave the example of an ice skater who spins faster when she draws in her arms, and spins slower when she stretches out her arms. It is the same in the golfswing.

Annikan, we've discussed this before and you know this already!
Lower hands = greater Accumulator #3 angle = an earlier Release everything thing else being the same.

pulleys
 

Weightshift,
My input would be that small and large pulleys- in the Golfing Machine - are concepts used for the power package and the four power accumulators in reference to the endless belt effect. If they release early then the endless belt effect is considered to have a large pulley- if they release late then the endless belt effect is considered to have a small pulley.

Swing radius is a separate issue from pulleys in the Golfing Machine. For example, swing radius can be lengthened by having pivot lag to the feet or shortened by losing pivot lag. So on the downswing you could have a larger pulley of the endless belt effect if you released the accumulators early as a result of shortening the swing radius by losing pivot lag.

Tong,
I think that's part of the problem that Annikan's having with weightshifts posts- in addition to Annikan's other issue - that Weight shift is using the concept raised or lowered hands to some relationship of the hands to the body say at start down- as opposed to the golfing machine concept of raised hands at address when you take your grip means that you'll have less #3 accumulator or lowered hands means you'll have a larger #3 accumulator.

Mike O-so-damn-crazy. This is off topic . . . but how do the Hands dictate to the FEETS? And can the Hands produce Pivot Lag or is Pivot Lag isolated to the Pivot?

I'm sending you some frightening pictures too :eyes:

Pavolian conditioning.
Mike can explain...

Thanks Mike O...What a freekin post that was!!!

Leo...you're right...but there is a huge difference between knowing someone/something and understanding someone/something....

"I understand few things...

know a little more than I understand...

discovering only later that what I did know...I did not understand!" - 12th Son of the Llama...

But thanks for the confidence boost!!!:salut:

Life Forms
 

Bagger- :hello: Please note the lowest form of life on a forum- the dreaded "THREAD JACKER" AKA 12 Piece Bucket- AKA Grease Pit-

Annikan, Can nothing be done about this!!! :exclaim:, word has it that you have access to 12 Piece- what if we sent you a little CASH!

Seriously my forum friend Mr. 12 Piece- AKA 1/2 of a golfing Machine- hey- everyone's gotta start somewhere! Post a new thread and I guess we could bat it around a little.:)

OK trouble-maker . . . I'm startin' a new thread.

Mike O.....Need a straight jacket and some tranquilizers...to even come close to catchin the 12 piece bandito....#-o

I know...Master Yoda has been outta town...but perhaps his little friend "Lukey"....has some ideers on this thread...

calling Yoda
 

Yoda, is it possible that Homer Kelley is refering to the same meaning that Dante describes?

A Tale Of Two Pulley Wheels
 

They are the same in that they both describe the late Release as a small pulley wheel and the early Release as a large pulley wheel. But there the similarity ends.

Dante's analogy has to do with the inertia of the wheel and its physical rotation. Kelley's analogy, on the other hand, has nothing to do with either. Instead, the wheel is a proxy for the Release Interval -- the size of the Release Arc through which the Hands pass -- prior to Impact. The smaller the Arc -- the less Clubhead Travel Time permitted during Release -- the greater the Clubhead Speed. For example, halving the Travel Time (Snap Release / small pulley wheel) doubles the Travel Rate (Clubhead Speed). Conversely, doubling the Travel Time (Sweep Release / large pulley wheel) halves the Travel Rate. All this is necessary to comply with the Law of the Flail and the Rhythm (RPM) of the Stroke as the Clubshaft seeks its in-line condition with the Left Arm.

In other words, Kelley's model has to do with the increase (or decrease) in Clubhead Speed with the Handspeed held constant. And that Clubhead Speed is inversely proportional to the diameter of the pulley wheel, i.e., the smaller the pulley wheel (at the end of the Delivery Path of the Hands), the greater the increase in Clubhead Speed during the Hands' encounter with it.

BOUT Time!!!

Thanks Yoda, for that explanation.

I can understand that there is an increase, but double?

Trip Planner
 

That's the math, Weightshift. If you've got a hundred-mile trip, you can drive 50 miles per hour for two hours or 100 miles per hour for one hour. But if you decide on the latter, better watch for cops! The same is true when you push your Golf Stroke to its limits. Overacceleration is indeed "the menace that stalks all lag and drag."

Handspeed held constant is an important aspect to keep in mind when reading about this topic in the book. What makes it more confusing though is how Homer talks about Handspeed changing when we change the Accumulator #3 angle, because that also affects the pulley size.

Now we're rollin!!!

great thread, bump