LynnBlakeGolf Forums

LynnBlakeGolf Forums (http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/index.php)
-   Emergency Room - Swingers (http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=29)
-   -   Over the top cure? (http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3215)

Michael Finney 08-06-2006 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tongzilla
What is it Mike?

An "inadequate weight transfer" is a golfer's sometimes futile attempt to get the ball to start more to the left because he has an OPEN CLUBFACE......

as root causes go, the OPEN CLUBFACE at separation is a blockbuster...and the cause of most of the "ungolflike" motions on the driving ranges near you.....but you already knew that, leo...didn't you?

Weightshift 08-07-2006 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth
When i use the 'right foot back' drill i don't come OTT - i'm thinking because i can see a nice big alley way from the top back down to the ball (i.e. right hip is not in the way). Is this still related to weightshift? i think my OTT is subconciously avoiding the elbow/hip collision because i'm definately not intending on doing it.

When i think about the pivot or weightshift however i tend to get to much swaying and leg drive going on....

You have to approach this problem in baby steps. Try the feet-together-drill with Pitching Wedge to Driver, then short chip shots with the irons, slowly increasing stance width. It's not something that's going to happen overnight :)

tongzilla 08-07-2006 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Finney
An "inadequate weight transfer" is a golfer's sometimes futile attempt to get the ball to start more to the left because he has an OPEN CLUBFACE......

as root causes go, the OPEN CLUBFACE at separation is a blockbuster...and the cause of most of the "ungolflike" motions on the driving ranges near you.....but you already knew that, leo...didn't you?

Thanks Mike...I get it. Seems like almost everything has to do with the clubface.

Mathew 08-07-2006 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weightshift
You have to approach this problem in baby steps. Try the feet-together-drill with Pitching Wedge to Driver, then short chip shots with the irons, slowly increasing stance width. It's not something that's going to happen overnight :)

Hey weightshift :)

Some good thoughts there. Many people (teachers and students) have said how wonderful they hit the ball when their feet are together. I would like to expand on this drill with some thoughts to try and help him a little further, and what it concerns is that of moving the head - bobbing and swaying.

However people rely on their crutch of swaying and are thus lazy to fully pivot.... When they are told to keep a stationary head usually they don't pivot because it takes an effort, then golf instructors in their efforts to get results quick, tell them to move it back...etc etc.

Bobby Jones, Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan, Sam Snead...etc etc all emphasise it in their literature with the stationary head as the ideal. Jack Nicklaus called it golfs unarguable fundamental. It amazes me looking back when I was learning to play a bit when was a kid from books, that I would listen to a teacher like leadbetter and others over sources of the best players....

Weight shift is a result of the hip motion under the stationary head and its not a big huge thing. Good golfers can't lift their left foot off the ground for example....

hg 08-07-2006 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathew
Hey weightshift :)

...Bobby Jones, Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan, Sam Snead...etc etc all emphasise it in their literature with the stationary head as the ideal. Jack Nicklaus called it golfs unarguable fundamental....
Weight shift is a result of the hip motion under the stationary head and its not a big huge thing. Good golfers can't lift their left foot off the ground for example....


A stationary head is an ideal... correct? Hogan's head was not fixed ...it moved a little back on the backswing and forward and down on the downswing transition. Maybe it was stationary relative to the rest of his body motion during the backswing to downswing transition.

bts 08-08-2006 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth
Hi all, firstly thanks for a great site...

I'm fighting an over the top move in my downswing (on video my right shoulder moves *out* ever so slightly instead of *down*). This is enough to cause a shank in the short irons or pulls

After reading around here i know that the right shoulder has to go down, what is the best way to train this when you've been used to it going out for so long (been playing with it 15 years or more i guess) (again it's only a small move maybe an inch or so)

Drills etc more than welcome !!

Thanks

You either "load and sustain the lag" or "move the right shoulder down", which is gonna "keep the right shoulder on-plane or down".

Weightshift 08-08-2006 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathew
Hey weightshift :)

Some good thoughts there. Many people (teachers and students) have said how wonderful they hit the ball when their feet are together. I would like to expand on this drill with some thoughts to try and help him a little further, and what it concerns is that of moving the head - bobbing and swaying.

However people rely on their crutch of swaying and are thus lazy to fully pivot.... When they are told to keep a stationary head usually they don't pivot because it takes an effort, then golf instructors in their efforts to get results quick, tell them to move it back...etc etc.

Bobby Jones, Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan, Sam Snead...etc etc all emphasise it in their literature with the stationary head as the ideal. Jack Nicklaus called it golfs unarguable fundamental. It amazes me looking back when I was learning to play a bit when was a kid from books, that I would listen to a teacher like leadbetter and others over sources of the best players....

Weight shift is a result of the hip motion under the stationary head and its not a big huge thing. Good golfers can't lift their left foot off the ground for example....


Hi Mathew.
Yoda wrote (in another thread): "In my own case, unless I consciously monitor the situation -- which I rarely do -- I am totally unaware of the degree of Hip Slide. However, at one time I worked pretty hard on that Component and still do emphasize its 'parallel to the Plane Line' motion when I practice my Lag Loading via Downstroke Waggles. And here, there is enough lateral motion to transfer the Weight to the left side as the Body begins to Pull the Arms and Hands toward their Impact Locations."

Mathew 08-08-2006 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hg
A stationary head is an ideal... correct? Hogan's head was not fixed ...it moved a little back on the backswing and forward and down on the downswing transition. Maybe it was stationary relative to the rest of his body motion during the backswing to downswing transition.

Many of the golf greats may or may not moved very very 'slightly' in certain slow mo pictures, but their intentions are towards the ideal are very clear and it certainly can be done. Many mistake the look of turning the head even though its still stationary as defined by a fixed point in space as the head as though it was moving backwards to the right. This is because the head is not shaped like a soccer ball...

Really all the golf stroke requires is some point on the top of the spine to stabilise the motion, yet the head is preferable because you can use your eyes to monitor if it has moved....there is no other point you can use that has anything that can match that advantage(ie point between the shoulders).

Michael Finney 08-08-2006 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathew
Many of the golf greats may or may not moved very very 'slightly' in certain slow mo pictures, but their intentions are towards the ideal are very clear

How do you know what their intentions were?

And what is the ideal?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathew
and it certainly can be done. Many mistake the look of turning the head even though its still stationary as defined by a fixed point in space as the head as though it was moving backwards to the right. This is because the head is not shaped like a soccer ball...

So, if the head were shaped like a soccer ball the perceived movement to the right would not exist...explain this to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathew
Really all the golf stroke requires is some point on the top of the spine to stabilise the motion, yet the head is preferable because you can use your eyes to monitor if it has moved....there is no other point

Which particular point?...the base of the neck?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathew
you can use that has anything that can match that advantage(ie point between the shoulders).


Mathew 08-08-2006 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Finney
How do you know what their intentions were?

And what is the ideal?

Jack Nicklaus - chapter 6 of Golf My Way - "I regard keeping the head very steady, if not absolutely stock still, throughout the swing as the bedrock fundamental of golf. It is inviolable as far as I'm concerned" - italics on "the" is his...

Ben Hogan - Chapter 5 Power Golf- "The body only coils. Your head doesn't move" when describing his backstroke mechanics on p53 and then on p68 describing a frame pre-impact - "The head is still stationary"...

Look at my signature on what Bobby Jones thought....

and thats just three great players... I got alot more quotes too but I think you get my point.

The ideal is to use your eyes inorder to detect any wrongful deviation in head location. There is no control for the point between the shoulders, which is why Homer Kelley didn't advocate it.

Quote:

So, if the head were shaped like a soccer ball the perceived movement to the right would not exist...explain this to me.
Well think about it - if the head is in a fixed point in space and it turns slightly, how would it look to a camera face on....

Quote:

Which particular point?...the base of the neck?
I prefer describing that point as the point between the shoulders - but close enough.

hg 08-09-2006 12:29 AM

Hogan's Words vs Actions
 
Hogan spoke of things in his books about his swing techniques/mechanics that actual swing sequences prove otherwise. I understand that his swing mechanics changed after his near fatal accident. His head did move down and forward on his downswing prior to impact as his lower body drove forward...at least the sequences that I have seen show that. Tiger has a similar move...I believe.

Mathew 08-09-2006 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hg
Hogan spoke of things in his books about his swing techniques/mechanics that actual swing sequences prove otherwise. I understand that his swing mechanics changed after his near fatal accident. His head did move down and forward on his downswing prior to impact as his lower body drove forward...at least the sequences that I have seen show that. Tiger has a similar move...I believe.

Regardless if he did or did not have a stationary head on any or every stroke he took, he clearly understood it to be the ideal - infact all great players do. I also include Tiger Woods to that list who over the last few years has become an advocate of the stationary head.

I mean I really don't see how anyone can visualise the power package structure and not see the undeniable need for a stationary point at the top of the spine as one of the elements that controls the shoulder motions.

tongzilla 08-09-2006 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathew

The ideal is to use your eyes inorder to detect any wrongful deviation in head location. There is no control for the point between the shoulders, which is why Homer Kelley didn't advocate it.

Per 1-L-2, the head is allowed to turn (but not sway or bob), but surely this rotation will change the way your eyes look at the ball. Doesn't this make the "eyes argument" obsolete, as I do not know of any great golfers who does not turn their head slightly on the backstroke?

lagster 08-10-2006 12:11 AM

Head
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tongzilla
Per 1-L-2, the head is allowed to turn (but not sway or bob), but surely this rotation will change the way your eyes look at the ball. Doesn't this make the "eys argument" obsolete, as I do not know of any great golfers who does not turn their head slightly on the backstroke?

////////////////////////////////////////////

This is true. Most, if not all, tour players have a slight swivel of the head near the TOP or END of their backswing. The head does not necessarily move laterally, but TURNS(rotates) slightly to the right.

Someone that is very RIGHT EYE DOMINANT may have problems with this. What do you think?

tongzilla 08-10-2006 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lagster
////////////////////////////////////////////

This is true. Most, if not all, tour players have a slight swivel of the head near the TOP or END of their backswing. The head does not necessarily move laterally, but TURNS(rotates) slightly to the right.

Someone that is very RIGHT EYE DOMINANT may have problems with this. What do you think?

I am assuming this "problem" you are talking about has to do with alignment. If so, I don't think it's a problem as long as the golfer is looking directly at the ball (as oppose to gazing downwards, i.e "looking down your nose"). He is then able to see a straight line perpendicular to the leading edge of clubface to the target.

12 piece bucket 08-10-2006 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tongzilla
I am assuming this "problem" you are talking about has to do with alignment. If so, I don't think it's a problem as long as the golfer is looking directly at the ball (as oppose to gazing downwards, i.e "looking down your nose"). He is then able to see a straight line perpendicular to the leading edge of clubface to the target.

You lost me on this one . . . my particularly feeble braincell is not firing at full steam.

Help please . . .


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:12 PM.