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Can we keep this thread on topic please... I did this thread to make you think, not post pics of Tigers girlfriend over it...
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I believe we are getting close enough to the answer now that I will just tell you what it is.
The answer is (drum roll) They are both parallel on the same angle in relation to another plane (Jen's plane) which is found via vertically going through the no.3 accumulator plane on the angle of the left arm (or parallel equivalent). Any questions ? - I'll post a new question tonight... |
Ok seems everybody must see it now.
New question a little easier than last one - Why does Jen's plane only exist when you have exactly 90 degrees of wristcock? Answer in Geometrical relations only.... |
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You still have some splain'in to do. Angle of the left arm??? Other than zero #3 accumulator, what does it have to do with anything? :) :) :) Bagger |
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The accumulator 3 plane needs an edge just like the one on the book. You find this from the angle that left arm makes whilst it lays on the no.3 acc plane - this serves the same function as the side of that book. This gives you the plane in which they are parallel on... Any help ? |
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With all due respect...What does this "Jen's Plane" have to do with striking a golf ball with better application of force? TGM is already confusing enough...LOL:laughing9
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Discoverer's Option
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Hawkings is more of a 4th/5th dimensional guy IMO... But back to the 'point'.... Mathew - are you talking about the plane of the pressure points? Mainly the plane of PP#1 and/or #3 in 3 dimensional space? Given that the left and right flying wedges intersect that point at an angle. |
Home Sweet Home
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Girls
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OHHH MANNNNNNNN!!....GOOD SWEET LORD....WHAT I WOULD DO TO GET A PIEC...
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....got all riled up there for a second....I uh, apologize...that was out of character there... ;) (just buggin u Matthew) |
My Take
I can see how all of this works on a 1-L machine where the primary lever is directly attached to a stationary post. In that model, the #3 accumulator is zeroed out. If you were to model a stationary post with a second hinge representing left arm and clubshaft like Yoda's real life model, then you would see that the left arm (Primary Lever) is always below plane unless #3 is zeroed out.
The definition of the #3 accumulator is the angle formed between the clubshaft and left forearm 6-B-3-0. That left forearm is pointing below plane most of the time. In addtion, the human golfer as opposed to the stationary post model, has a clavical attaching the left arm to the sternum. As the post moves, the whole left arm assembly moves. We don't have our left arm jutting out from the top of our sternum. So when I talk about the left arm being off plane, it's really off plane as compared to the model. So in discussing the terminology of your geometric model, it would be helpful to distinguish the model pieces as primary lever and secondary lever. The artwork you have presented is wonderful, but has certain limitations in that the #3 accumulator must be zero in order for sweetspot to be moved and rolled on plane. As best I can tell, the #3 plane that you have identified is simply the inline relationship of the clubshaft and left arm and is best seen from a face on view. Nice graphic work. Bagger |
Intelligent Post
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Nice post! Matthew, Is your model representing a simple machine or an actual golfer? That's what's confusing to me- I thought you were representing a "normal Human golfing machine" not just a simple machine. Please clarify. Thanks, Mike |
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This is not 1-L. As I said previously, we are discussing the no.3 accumulator plane - 1-L has no accumulator no.3 plane because it has no no.3 accumulator except for the motion created by the primary hinge. In 1-L accumulator 3 will never ever ever turn towards directly towards the inclined plane - the very thing we are discussing. This is not string theory or anything else - its just simple geometry moving in motion which is the very heart of the golfing machine.... |
Name that Thingie
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What is it? You still have some splain'in to do. :) If this isn't 1-L, then we need some labels on the artwork to define what each object represents. Thanks, Bagger |
Nice one Mike O . . .You kill me . . . uh wait a minute
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Mike . . . I just noticed your 10-20 bucket's closet. . . You are a funny fool!!! Very nice!!! I can't top that!! |
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The yellow arrow is the pointing towards the swivel in 2-K which defines the accumulator no.3 of the left wrist.... |
Tops
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Matthew, I'm officially in Bagger's camp:confused1, that's the confused camp. Confused but waiting anxiously- love those graphics- but while we're waiting we'll be posting photos, bantering with Bucket, etc. just to pass the time. |
Thats what I don't understand. What is confusing?
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The golf swing
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1) the left arm- defined by the straight line between the hand and the shoulder and assuming a flat left wrist 2)the clubshaft- defined loosely by that straight line from the hands to the clubhead We're using a zero shift plane in this example and looking at say the movement of the #3 accumulator plane from impact fix to the top in relation to the swing plane. Since the left shoulder is not on the swing-plane (always "in front" of the swing plane- from impact fix to the top- assuming a #3 accumulator) and the hands are always on plane- then the #3 accumulator plane is closed to the swing plane and not parallel to the swing plane at any point in the backswing. So your comment "parallel to" throws me. What do you mean by "parallel to" and where and how does that happen? As a side note- after a little review - I believe that would make the #3 accumulator steeper than the swing plane- I believe I said in an earlier post that it was flatter- easier to see that it is closed to the swing plane but a little tougher to see that it is steeper- I used two small envelopes with one resting on the table at an angle representing the swing plane and the other envelope representing the #3 accumulator plane with the narrow side- resting on the "swing plane" -that's the clubshaft side of the number 3 accumulator plane and the other narrow side of the envelope elevated off of the swing plane with the lower corner representing the left shoulder at some point in the backswing. |
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They are parallel in the context if you have yet another plane (I'll have to name this one too) on the tangential line of the left arm angle vertically through accumulator 3 plane, the intersecting lines of the inclined plane and acc no.3 plane will be on a parallel angle when moved in a parallel direction away from the tangential line along the line of Jens plane. The plane shift variations question is out of context. |
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On a separate note- wristcock would not affect the #3 accumulator plane. While the left arm and clubshaft have the possibility of forming a 90 degree angle- that's because you start with some #3 accumulator - becuase the wrist cannot cock 90 degrees. So it's not 90 degrees of wristcock- minor clarification, I believe I understand you were just referring to the left arm - clubshaft relationship- but again since that angle has no influence on changing the #3 accumulator plane- not sure why it plays a factor in your analysis? As I would say to Bucket- Bring it! The information that is. |
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Put your book against a wall so that when the book is open the books contents are facing the wall. As the two covers extend on to infinity and cut through this wall the lines of intersection will be parallel. Quote:
This is one of the main reasons I showed this relationship. The longitudinal center of gravity is inline with the left wristcock motion which all occurs on the accumulator no.3 plane. Because the accumulator 3 plane is a left arm plane and goes through the inclined plane, accumulator 2 motion can never be seperated from the no.3 accumulator. The only way for them to be completely co-ordinate would be to bend the left wrist to the degree that the accumulator no.3 goes into the inclined plane. Hence so that the palm would actually be touching the plane rather than just turned directly towards it... In this positional example the longitudinal center of gravity must be at exactly 90 degrees to the left arm so that it is on the line that the two planes intersect otherwise it would not be on plane. The left wristcock motion is a motion made on the accumulator no.3 plane not the inclined plane... |
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Save me here guys,
Do you agree that the clubshaft is on plane ,and as the secondary lever assembly and one side of the#3 acc angle it sits on both planes?:confused1 |
Mathew - would you agree that what you are calling "Jen's Plane" - stays 'between the arms'?
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That's how I see it. Matthew's still has lost me - but with a little work I think we'll get there. |
Angles
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One thing at a time- call me stupid or maybe I just have a communication problem with engineers or similar type folks. So how does your quote above differ from my explanation of parallel. Let me guess: In your example, the wall is vertical and the spine is closest to me- and the book is spread open- so the front cover is say angled 45 degrees toward the sky and the back cover is aimed 45 degrees towards the ground - and both are going through the wall at the same angle but different directions? And that's parallel? Just guide me through this example if I missed it- and be very clear so that I can visualize what your describing. Anotherwords, was my definition of each point opposite from the the other plane - being the same distance not correct? Are we talking the plane surfaces parallel or the plane lines parallel or the plane edges parallel- still need help. Thanks, Mike |
But what does it mean?
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"what I see is the red plane representing the perpendicular(to the plane of the left arm assembly) plane of the left wrist hinge pin, so the motion would be horizontal/parallel to the inclined plae of the left arm assembly until the swivel starts, and then the red plane would have to rotate to the finish position." I'm still not sure what it means in terms of the golf swing, but I think I finally got it. First off, Jen's plane exists at all positions through the swing. As matthew has defined at at the top, it is vertical to the inclined plane. The orientation of Jen's plane relative to the inclined plane however is different at each position you look at through the swing. It's is just a representation of the rotation through impact of the left wrist hinge pin. At the top, it would be vertical, at impact parallel, and at finish, vertial again. This is Matthew's closing book analogy. Also, since the cocking/uncocking motion of the #3acc stays in the plane of the left arm, I can't see how Jen's plane is affected by the amount of wristcock at any particular position. G2M |
Of Course
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In your example, you are thinking of the surface plane of the book cover, not the line or edge of the plane When the plane of book cover 1 and the plane of book cover 2 intersect a common plane, like the wall, each transcribes a line. These two intersections will be parallel to one another, even though the direction of the two book covers approaching the plane (wall). Try it for your self. Take a hard v=cover book and hold it against a solid surface that you can write on. Hold the book open to the amount of your choice and while hilding it in that position, trace the edge of the book cover where it touches the hard surface. Try it several times, at different amounts of open or closed. The tracings will always be parallel. G2M |
Waiting to Exhale
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I don't have 3D drawing tools, but it's not too difficult to visualize the motion.
Matthew, please make comments/corrections to my crude drawing. The red/yellow planes merge/unmerge, and rotate together throughout the swing, but always stay in the plane of the left wristock motion. In the golfers model, there isn't any useful relation to the inclined plane because of the variance of motion in the left arm. I'm still waiting for that ah ha moment though. :) Bagger |
ah-ha moment?
OK Matthew, I think we're getting pretty close to the mechanics of what you are trying to say with wordy descriptions and baggers drawings, but like bagger, the ah-ha moment continues to escape me. Maybe you could give us a bit more insight as to why this new plane is significant.
G2M |
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Fair question Matthew. Would you explain the importance of understanding this information? |
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When the hand is not turned towards the plane (which I thought would make the relationships pretty clear...) and is anywhere else - the LCOG will lay on the inclined plane on the angle that accumulator 3 plane makes as it passes through it. The wristcock no of degrees can then be determined by the angle between that line of intersection just described and the angle it makes with relation to Jens plane. |
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